ALFAGTV6.COM

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:59 pm

I am interested to hear the opinions here on the older generation oil-filled shocks that RSRacing uses, versus the newer technology gas-filled shocks (such as the Glenwood setup?)

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:50 am

Well, for starters they are both oil filled, the gas is separated from the oil by a floating piston and is there to prevent the oil from foaming.
As usual you pick the part depending on application, If you don't need gas filled shocks there's no need to spend the extra dough.

Andrew.b · Post by **Andrew.b** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:24 am

Rons kit uses GAS charged dampers JJ.

As you have a kit, you'll notice the piston rods expand after being compressed.

All Alfa dampers have oil in them, gas is used to stop cavitation on some types. I believe Ron uses Intrax dampers, and the kit developed by Barry and Dawie uses KW.

Cheers

Andrew

Andrew.b · Post by **Andrew.b** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:27 am

JJ

What did your 'glenwood' kit consist of?? Dampers, extra springs, roll bar(sway), adjustable rear spring perch??

A

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:21 pm

We sent these out to a guy with a sophisticated shock dyno - he knows his stuff... I was trying to figure out a few things on the spring rates and damp rates as the rears feel too soft for me....

Also, the 115kg front spring markings from RSR don’t make sense - it's as if there is one number missing to quote the correct spring rate...? The fronts are supposed to be 115??? to a side, but they show about 132 kg... on the dyno!

Any way, Glenwood's setup runs KW "gas" shocks (coil-overs up front and separated shocks/springs in the rear - very similar to the RS setup.)

I am exploring the differences right now as I may pass off this RSRacing kit for a more track-proven setup from Dawie.

Andrew.b · Post by **Andrew.b** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:03 pm

JJ

With all respect.....

I don't think you'll get more 'track proven' than Rons cars at the 'ring.......I mean 2 years of track driving at the most demanding circuit in the world!?!?! who are you kidding?? yourself?? Have you driven his cars??

The markings on the springs are a unique code, and relate to length, rate and diameter, you may be confused.

What car did you fit them to?? What has your 'track' car got on the rear now?

What springs were you supplied for the rear 40/56/70?? the 70's =392lbs/in, like 3.5 times stiffer than standard! you find them too soft?

Tell me, how do you like the set up to feel on track... understeer/oversteer/loose/unstable??

Hey, if you're getting rid of the rs kit, I'll take it man!

Andrew.b · Post by **Andrew.b** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:07 pm

JJ

Also, tell us more about you're car set up.... what goemetry do you run, ride height also.

What kind of rear sway bar do you have? what bushes are rubber? have you bent steering arms??

Spill the beans...

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:05 pm

The track will run Ron's full setup... 60kg springs in the rear and his shocks with adjusters, 115kg springs in the front coil-overs, stock t-bars for now, but looking at going with huge t-bars on the track car (heard about 33mm bars) but only after I try this first. I have his steering extender, watts linkages, sway bar end-links, center bushing and huge front sway bar. All polly bushings, waiting on is rear sway bar as well as his DeDion bushing... 105/115 upper ball-joint and some other minor stuff.

I have what he calls a full suspension. What did I miss?

Ride-height won't be set until the 156 3.7 drops in... Moved the battery to the back on both cars. I will dig up my corner weight numbers - posted them before... Pretty low in the back, trying to shift weight....

Considering Team Competizione +50mm upper and lower control arms for a wider front-track, but don't know about the compatibility with the RS setup...? Anyone? (Also looking at their shifter kit...)

I went the other direction with the street 3.0 12 valve Verde. Yellow Konis all the way around, IAP's red springs rear, 28.3mm front bars, all polly bushings. Cut the shifter 2 inches...

Look, I like Ron's setup, I was one of the first guys State-side to order from him... But, I want to look at other options. Yeah he has tested and tuned on the ring for 2 years. With al due respect, so what? Dawie has tested and tuned on 11 different tracks over 35 years (20 of it in TA Alfas!) From that rationale, I shouldn't even talk to anyone else... But this is not where I am at.

I realize that Ron may have something better after just 2 years in these cars, than what Dawie does after 20 years in them, and that is why I am actually buying a set of both... Now I have THREE different setups (and I don’t expect the Koni and IAP springs to be a match, but still…)

Then again, just ask Michael H; I consider him a far superior driver to myself; this season he ran his street GTV6 and I ran my street Milano Verde. BOTH CARS RUN 3.0 V6 and BOTH CARS RUN 3.55 LSD setups…. He was running an after market fuel setup mod., (to remain un-named) and CSC headers. He has S cams and pistons and I run stock. I was running Ricambi headers with no cats and stock fuel and spark with my Koni/IAP red springs and we would pretty much run together.

He’d take me and then I would just stay with him… Neither of us could explain it. He was running front RS coils/shocks and rear RS coils and shocks with bigger t-bars.

We’ll see. I loved Luis’ neutral feel to his RS setup on his Verde, so I am trying the full kit. Dawie is sending me his kit and one or the other will be up for sale.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:32 am

Since I use the RS suspension also, I would like to comment (I was one of the first 5 buyers

) The kit sold by Ron is developed and built by Henk Thuis. He owns Intrax suspension in the Netherlands and almost every serious racecar overhere has an Intrax suspension from him (and they race throughout europe). He used to co-own WP suspension which did suspensions in F1 in the '90 's. After that he started Intrax overhere.
He also supplies the complete Alfa Romeo Challenge overhere (including the IMSA's).... And races his own 75 1.4 Turbo

This is just to give you some background info

The setup Ron & Henk developed for the ring isn't a "pure" track setup because the ring is very bumpy compared to other tracks. Check out what gives you the best feel, you probably can't compare lap times or telemetrie....... Drop the car and set most caster as you can and a lot of camber (also on the rear). You'll have the best ride you can imagine!

Andrew.b · Post by **Andrew.b** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:56 pm

The track will run Ron's full setup... 60kg springs in the rear and his shocks with adjusters, 115kg springs in the front coil-overs, stock t-bars for now, but looking at going with huge t-bars on the track car (heard about 33mm bars) but only after I try this first. I have his steering extender, watts linkages, sway bar end-links, center bushing and huge front sway bar. All polly bushings, waiting on is rear sway bar as well as his DeDion bushing... 105/115 upper ball-joint and some other minor stuff.

33mm bars will be a waste of money with Ron's kit, it's based around the standard sized bars.... the ultimate max spring rate is dictated by the 4" coil spring on the damper, so going larger with t/bar will gain nothing, except weight.

I have what he calls a full suspension. What did I miss?

***Nothing....

Ride-height won't be set until the 156 3.7 drops in... Moved the battery to the back on both cars. I will dig up my corner weight numbers - posted them before... Pretty low in the back, trying to shift weight....

***okay...

Considering Team Competizione +50mm upper and lower control arms for a wider front-track, but don't know about the compatibility with the RS setup...? Anyone? (Also looking at their shifter kit...)

***Won't work, lower arms for full coilover only, no splines for t/bars. Why do you want to scr*w around with going wide track??? Please tell me why you would 'need' a wider front track..and what benefit YOU personally would gain?

***Stick with the RS kit and get that working well. You'll spend the next year trying to dial the car in anyhow, why over complicate things. You're chasing your tail JJ, but not knowing how to catch it!!

I went the other direction with the street 3.0 12 valve Verde. Yellow Konis all the way around, IAP's red springs rear, 28.3mm front bars, all polly bushings. Cut the shifter 2 inches...

***Would make a 'nice' street set up if you junked the dampers, and went with Bilstein sport model....

Look, I like Ron's setup, I was one of the first guys State-side to order from him... But, I want to look at other options. Yeah he has tested and tuned on the ring for 2 years. With al due respect, so what? Dawie has tested and tuned on 11 different tracks over 35 years (20 of it in TA Alfas!) From that rationale, I shouldn't even talk to anyone else... But this is not where I am at.

***Options....Well, Ron's is a very good and complete option, no question. Yes, Dawie has many years experience tuning and testing the cars, I for one, have known this for many years John... we were playing with Dawies race engines/parts more than SIX years ago, when you still thought 164S cams/pistons and shankle/ricambi headers were as good as it gets....

***I believe only 18 month ago I was sitting in Dawie's home, helping design the very 'KW' coilover with torsion bar kit you have ordered. This was after testing Rons kits in various models at the 'ring.

***Ron has in fact been racing/developing his GP.A GTV6 for ten years with his set up, and winning, enough development experience for you??

I realize that Ron may have something better after just 2 years in these cars, than what Dawie does after 20 years in them, and that is why I am actually buying a set of both... Now I have THREE different setups (and I don’t expect the Koni and IAP springs to be a match, but still…)

***It'll be fun trying....but what are you looking for ultimately

Then again, just ask Michael H; I consider him a far superior driver to myself; this season he ran his street GTV6 and I ran my street Milano Verde. BOTH CARS RUN 3.0 V6 and BOTH CARS RUN 3.55 LSD setups…. He was running an after market fuel setup mod., (to remain un-named) and CSC headers. He has S cams and pistons and I run stock. I was running Ricambi headers with no cats and stock fuel and spark with my Koni/IAP red springs and we would pretty much run together.

He’d take me and then I would just stay with him… Neither of us could explain it. He was running front RS coils/shocks and rear RS coils and shocks with bigger t-bars.

We’ll see. I loved Luis’ neutral feel to his RS setup on his Verde, so I am trying the full kit. Dawie is sending me his kit and one or the other will be up for sale.[/quote]

***Like I said - I'll take either John

***But.... as you have said before, you want to keep some 'streetability' in car by driving to the track and so on, but you seem to be worried/troubled by the pro's/con's of development time/spec or ability of kits available..... without having even driving them. Put simply Ron's kit will be 'better than you are' for some time, and unless you move to 10" slicks why try to re-invent the wheel.

***If you stick with Dawies kit, let us know what is included with the dampers, and more importantly, how you find the car.

***Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be difficult, but just give you an opinion..... based on my own experiences. Go with either, as they'll be good enough for more than you will ever need if you aren't racing... as for 'Dawie this and Ron that' ??? a bit silly really.....

***Cheers - if rather confused

[/b]

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:59 pm

Andrew, you had me up until your last comment which leaves me baffled, bewildered, perhaps even confused. What is "silly" is that YOU have now turned this into "...a Ron this and a Dawie that..."

As I had actually started this thread, I do believe memory has not failed me completely yet... The question I posed to all here was NOT "Ron versus Dawie." (We all know that Dawie is a tough little bastard and he can kick Ron's.... whatever

We all know that you and Ron are buds and that's OK. I make no bones about the fact that I like Dawie, but that I respect BOTH of them a great deal... (I would be remiss if I were going to sit here and bash Ron's setup, while clearly I OWN it and we have purchased another one for Jes' car!!! (So, don't feel the need to rush to Ron's defense; this was not an attack on him.)

Perhaps I should not have offered the names/brands of two examples, but I was just trying to use clear examples to better illustrate and clarify my question…

Andrew, you and I are forever going to get sideways like this if you don't learn to read my posts, read the headers and also, read between the lines a bit - or perhaps, DON'T read between the lines SO much!!!

Please re-read my original question. It was not "Ron versus Dawie, Now Let’s Get It On…” as you seem to think. I simply asked for good information about the nuances between Oil-filled and Gas-filled shocks. Clearly I don't know and clearly there WAS a time when you ALSO did not know. Were your first questions on the subject met with scorn? If so, then I am sorry for you. An honest question, (because I honestly don't know), deserves a straight answer, not your best efforts at weak, cheap entertainment.

This is a technical forum, supposedly geared toward providing support on technical issues. Visitors don't want to come here and ask questions, only to be lambasted, scorned and treated like a child! Learn to read, or kindly ignore my posts.

Andrew.b · Post by **Andrew.b** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:31 am

JJ

Oh dear....

1.How have I turned this into a "Ron this Dawie that"?? I did in fact say:

"Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be difficult, but just give you an opinion..... based on my own experiences. Go with either, as they'll be good enough for more than you will ever need if you aren't racing"......Seems a fair comment to me.

Your quote:

"Look, I like Ron's setup, I was one of the first guys State-side to order from him... But, I want to look at other options. Yeah he has tested and tuned on the ring for 2 years. With al due respect, so what? Dawie has tested and tuned on 11 different tracks over 35 years (20 of it in TA Alfas!) From that rationale, I shouldn't even talk to anyone else... But this is not where I am at." ..........Mmm.

2. I wanted to clarify that there has been more development in RSRacing's kit than you may be aware of. I was not 'running to his defence'....

3. It's good that you offered the name of two brands. As you say, this is a technical forum, and YOU brought up the question of RSRacing/Dawie in an earlier post:

"I am exploring the differences right now as I may pass off this RSRacing kit for a more track-proven setup from Dawie"

I was merely questioning your reasoning behind this......

4. I have also tried my best to answer your questions regarding 'other mods'.
But I'm confused at what you want JJ.... you talk about your suspension like you're building a 'full race' car - "maybe i'll go wide track" "33mm bars" and so on... then say 'but I have to be able to drive on the street'.... To me you are going round in circles.... and I was merely offering some sensible advice, and also trying to save you money and stress in the pit garage, but hey...you seem to know better which is fine - good luck.

5. Your question regarding the Gas/Oil differences....that was answered in the first two replies - giving you your 'straight answer'

6. I certainly haven't treated you like a child.... You seem to 'throw your toys out of the pram' and get hyper defensive when you're asked a technical question regarding your new toy. I think it's great that your building a 3.7 track car and sharing it with this forum....others have been less generous with details! So please don't be offended by people who ask how/what/why...there's more than one way to skin a cat!

We all benefit.....

Thanks

Andrew

p.s has your engine arrived yet??

[/b]

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:12 am

Andrew, thanks, I always appreciate the feedback (and perhaps I don’t get your English humour…)

I am a pretty laid-back guy (to those who have met me), but its statements like “You're chasing your tail JJ, but not knowing how to catch it!!” and “Ron has in fact been racing/developing… …and winning, enough development experience for you??” or my own personal favorite “who are you kidding?? yourself??” and too many others from prior posts that I care to find right now!

You are very aggressive with your responses, you hijack threads, you don’t read the gist of the thread before going off in a direction and then you are surprised that I would throw a fit! Generally, sarcastic responses about “taking some instruction on how to drive a track car” will get me (anyone) going. Others might just ignore you.

As far as RS versus Glenwood; IT IS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE WE SELL RS SETUPS THROUGH GROUP 2 THAT I DO NOT WANT TO BE BIASED AND ONE-SIDED!!! Do I have to spell it out? A person should ALWAYS be open to new ideas, hence the reason I am exploring Dawie’s setup. That’s all. No hidden agenda. No Ron-bashing. Just keeping an open mind, that’s all.

Any way, screw it. It’s done.

The engines ship on Monday. Jes’s motor is done, mapped, ready and Dawie is giving mine a few more kilos over the long weekend for a final dyno-run on Monday morning to see where we ended up.

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:12 pm

To my fellow fans of the cross and serpent,

I believe people do the best they can with the choices they think they have. When choices are plentiful, life is good. Kind of like going to a restaurant where they serve everything; everyone is happy. When choices are limited, life is frustrating. Kind of like not being able to get what you want at a restaurant; you experience frustration.

So, with this in mind... if life is a little frustrating... remember it is not the situation, or the words used by another, or another person... it's just the lack of perceived choices; you are unable to find what you want on the menu!

I suggest what you are looking for is available... you may just be looking in the wrong place.

Offered in Peace...

Cheers,

-Brian

ar4me · Post by **ar4me** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:48 pm

I suggest what you are looking for is available... you may just be looking in the wrong place.

Please tell us what you see in the crystal ball

Jes

ALFAGTV6.COM

Oil-Filled Shocks Versus Gas-Filled Shocks;

Hhmmm...

Still working on it....

Re: Still working on it....

Again Andrew...

Andrew;