ALFAGTV6.COM

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:27 am

A new section to discuss Mega* ignition control options and installations.

EDIS, HEI and Bosch are all viable options for your Alfa conversion!!

By Steve R on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 01:57 pm:

Some thoughts to start this off.

I measured the diameter of the front pulley on my 3.0, it's about 114-115mm so x Pi and you get 360, therefore.....

Damn clever these Alfa engineers, 1mm on the pully circumference = 1 degree crank timing ! I can work with that !

Therefore the factory advance curve on a 3.0 is (measuring from TDC marking):
Tickover mark is a further +8mm = 8 degrees BTDC
Max advance mark +32mm = 32 degrees BTDC
Vacuum advance seems to move it about 15 degrees.

Now I'm running about 5 extra degrees static, therefore I figure the "initial" spark map to approximate my current settings will be:

Tickover = 13 degrees smoothly transitioning to
WOT = 37 degrees by about 2500-3000 rpm
"cruising" MAP area's will add up to 15 degrees to the WOT figures.

The above is from a 3.0, it makes sense that the 2.5 would run a few degrees less timing as the combustion chambers are a little smaller the flame front would reach the furthest areas sooner thus needing less advance. I don't have a 2.5 pulley to measure so someone else would need to measure to be certain.

I'd appreciate any comments, especially if you can see a flaw in this thinking that I've missed.

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 02:08 pm:

Perfect. The drawing I got from Boost Engineering for the 36-1 Ford (stock) wheel has:

ID of wheel opening: 102.8mm
OD of wheel to teeth: 128.1mm
OD of wheel w/ teeth 144.3mm
ID of ring mount flange: 123.7mm
OD if ring mount flange: 127.5mm

So that gives us some mounting options.

Thanks for the dimensions Steve.

And FWIW, apparently my timing isn't that far off stock

-Peter

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:32 am

Good news!!!

The MSnS-E code 021o is now reading the 60-2 wheel as a trigger. I guess the code is still experimental and under test.

What does this mean? It means the MSnS-E code with 2 electrical mods will now drop into a Motronic ML4 without having to f**k with a triggering device.

If anyone needs more info on this, or a basic explaination of how it works, please reply here and I'll elaborate.

You'll need MSnE021o code and MT2.25 to make it work along with 2 component changes to read the VR sensor from the wheel.

The only problem this doesn't yet solve but will with the MS-II is the IAC solenoid on a 164. There are other solutions to this for the MS-I hardware but why bother with the MS-II coming out this month.

I understand an MSn-Extra port is underway for the MS-II.

Stay tuned...

-Peter

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:19 am

do you have a 60-2 triggerwheel on your 75?

Post by **Michael** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:32 am

Hi Peter:

Yeah - I'd like to hear more! I recently bought a (admittedly preassembled

) MS box with the added flyback board and the MSns-Extra firmware preinstalled.
What would it take to set up MS to control timing as well?

I'm looking forward to getting started on this project - will be following Steve Rosser and David Schmidt's guides to setting up MS (as well as everything you have posted here in the forum) and then looking to control timing at some later stage.

Cheers,

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:34 am

I have a hall sensor.

This opens up possiblities for TS and 164 owners. Also for gtv6 owners that have the early ignition by using a 164 front pulley and VR sensor as a trigger device with a Motronic ignitor.

I could easily use a 164 pulley on my 75 3.0 in place of the hall sensor. Maybe opens up a COP possibilty too.

Wish I had the 60-2 wheel. I could be a test subject for the developers.

-Peter

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:26 am

michael wrote:Hi Peter:

Yeah - I'd like to hear more! I recently bought a (admittedly preassembled ) MS box with the added flyback board and the MSns-Extra firmware preinstalled.
What would it take to set up MS to control timing as well?

I'm looking forward to getting started on this project - will be following Steve Rosser and David Schmidt's guides to setting up MS (as well as everything you have posted here in the forum) and then looking to control timing at some later stage.

Cheers,

Timing is easy. What year is your car and does it have the Hall sensor trigger?

Go find yourself Bosch part # 0 227 100 137(or 139) which is an ignitor for a Motronic system. Commonly found on 164s or any ML4 Alfa (75TS, 155TS etc).

Wire the hall sensor output to tach in (24) on the MS, wire the FIdle out to the Ignitor, wire the ignitor to the coil and you have timing control. You need to do 2 mods to the MS around R10 and D12 for the square wave tach input from the hall.

If you don't have a Hall sensor, the 60-2 wheel with MSn-E 021o will read the wheel instead for a trigger. Use a front pulley and VR sensor from a 164.

If you want more detail like what to modify, look at the MSn-E pages in soureforge. http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/index.html

It has detailed wiring diagrams and pinouts for various ignitors like the Bosch and HEI. I don't see any doc on the wheel yet. I'm sure James will have it posted as soon as the test cycle is done.

We can discuss any fuel install issues you have in that install forum. If you're using the pigtail, I hope you saved a copy of the MS to LJet wiring diagram. If not you can get it from my site.

-Peter

Post by **Zamani** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:52 pm

Do you guys really need 60-2? Why not modify the disk in the dissy? Correct me if I am wrong but if you cut 4 teeth off and you will also have 2 triggering events every complete engine cycle.

However if you do this, you will not be able to use the stock ignition system again. Maybe buy a spare used dissy in case you decide to not go with MSnS or EDIS etc.

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:09 am

The hall sensor in the Milano distributor will work fine with the MSnS and Motronic ignitor.

It's the Motronic cars that don't have a hall sensor and use the 60-2 wheel for crank angle. The VRS output is read and calculated to find the crank angle by teeth.

The Hall does a standard square wave with next-cylinder calculation. The 60-2 wheel decoding for crank angle was the missing link to converting a Motronic car like a TS or a 164. It's there now in test.

FYI, this all came about because the Dodge Neon uses a crank angle sensor wheel with some weird number of teeth on it. The 60-2 decoding was an easy add-on.

-Peter

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:30 am

any news peter? EDIS runs?

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:23 am

Still working on it.

Looks like I'll get the SCCA EP Alfetta done before mine.

I'll get some good info and a dyno run when I install in Wisconsin.

I have an SCCA ITB Spider to do too before mine. Fuel and spark. It's a real challenge to get around the restrictive rules for IT. EP unlimited prep is great. Anything goes motor wise.

-Peter

joey · Post by **joey** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:50 am

sepaking of MSII, do you know when it'll be coming out? any word?

~75 bucks USD i'm not keen on, but seeing as i'll be paying around $50USD just for the parts required for the fuel circuit mod from digikey, why the hell not !!

grrr.

cheers,

joe

P.Webb · Post by **P.Webb** » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:03 pm

Looks like MS-II is weeks away. The beta testing is done and MT is ready.

There's a dedicated forum for MS-II on msefi.com. Take a look at the messages there.

-Peter

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