Related to the Bowling & Grippo Fuel Injection system.
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P.Webb
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The Old (Long) initial MS Thread - reposted

Post by P.Webb »

Hello Everybody. Michael asked me to come over to this forum to discuss the MegaSquirt conversion.

I have it successfully running in my Milano/75 3.0 Verde(QV) and an L-Jetronic Spider.

Without getting writers cramps to explain the entire process I'll summerize the unit itself and what it took to get an Alfa running with it.

All due credit extended to Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo, the designers of the system. They design, develop and improve the system at no profit to an enthusiast market.

First, it's a DIY kit that you solder together from a group buy list. The parts are somewhere around $140US with a case, less if you want to use an existing L-Jet case. For those abroad, there are several successful MegaSquirts running throughout Europe, Asia and Australia in a variety of vehicles. There are vendors throughout the world for the parts required.

The MegaSquirt in principle utilizes the fundamentals of EFI that are present in most every installation. It runs from a digital Motorola processor (computer). In general operation, the fueling tables are burned into the volatile memory through a laptop computer without any changes to the program. The program reads the tables along with sensor input and fuels according to the user parameters. This is the "tuning" section where you drive around and tune your car to the desired performance. The tuning programs are written by enthusiasts and freely distributed. It's no more complicated to operate than an standard PC software.

All EFI systems use a combination of air intake temperature, coolant temperature, throttle position, engine RPM and measured intake air. The differences come in how the intake air is measured.

Your Alfa L-Jet and Motronic systems use a mass/air system that is measured at the air flow meter. The MegaSquirt is a speed/density system that measures the pressure of the air inside the plenum (manifold) to determine its volume. The third system is an alpha/N system that uses throttle position only. Though the MegaSquirt is capable of a/n, it's not advised on regular or slightly tuned street cars. If you have a highly tuned street car with lumpy cams or an all our race car that idles at 2500RPM then it might be for you.

The key to the MegaSquirt conversion is taking the existing applicable Bosch sensors and feeding them into the MegaSquirt. This is accomplised from an L-Jet wiring diagram and simply wired inside the gutted L-Jet box. The DB37 connector standard on the MS is omitted and wires are connected directly to the board from the appropriate pin on the L-Jet connector. This is done from the male connector inside the box so the female connector on the car is unmolsted.

I have an L-Jet to MS pinout conversion PDF developed by one of the BMW guys who did the same thing. Our car's EFI is identical to a 528, 633 and 733 L-Jet (you can even swap out ECU's from those cars to gain a little performance and lose the rev limited. More on that another time).

The AFM is no longer needed. However, the IAT sensor is. You can leave it in place and prop the door open or remove it and install an IAT sensor in the air tube to the throttle and use the AFM connector pins to send the signal back via the stock pinouts. If you don't remove the AFM, going back to the L-Jet ECU is a matter of minutes.

Ok, so that's just the surface. There are many more details of the MS capablity and many more configuration options, including modifying the Alfa intake with mix and match parts from 164's and 155's, and the issue of replacing the TPS is a sticky one. You don't NEED a TPS if you plan a mild street application. If you want a high performance modification, you'll have to pick up a TPS from a 164QV or 155TS/V6 and make a small adapter to match the bolt holes. In my latest experiment, it appears the whole throttle body just bolts right on with no issues. However, a supply of 164QV/155 throttle bodies isn't forthcoming in the US, so you may have to make the adapter. The adapter consists of a plate with 4 holes in it. Something you can make from Home Depot in an hour.

Please post your questions or comments here so 1) everyone can read them and my responses and 2) so I don't have to type the same answers several times.

I look forward to further discussion.

-Peter

By Dennis de Rooy on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:41 am:


Hi Peter,

This is an interesting subject and would like to clear one thing up. I have a 164QV 12V engine in my GTV6 with the Motronic installed. The Throttle body needs minor work if you'd want to install it, but you can just switch sensors. On the outside they are identical.

Does Megasquirt only control Fuel or is it possible to control ignition as well? I'm just getting into this and I am looking for a programmable ECU that can be used with a turbo. I'm thinking of putting in an 1.8 turbo engine or turbo the TS in my 75.

By PaulG on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 08:44 am:


Peter-What mods have been done to your Verde and Spider prior to using Megasquirt?What kind of gains in horsepower have you noticed? What could I expect on my mildly modified 2.5 V6(CB Cams,No Cat)? What would you recomend as the best configuration if I want to stay with what I've got?The current thinking has been that the 2.5 is always at a disadvantage unless you rebuild the engine with radical pistons and oversize valves and then expensive fuel injections system like Haltec or Autotronic or even better put in a 3.0..To bottom line it do you think Megaquirt is the inexpensive solution to the 2.5 performance deficiancies?Paul Grant

By Michael Harris (Admin) on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 09:34 am:


The Megasquirt at this point only controls the fuel - so you could just retain the standard Bosch functionality to provide spark.
Peter told me that Megasquirt will release a new version called MegasquirtUltra sometime later in 2004 which will have many more features including spark control and sequential injection.

By MerrilGordon on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 04:15 pm:


Bravo Peter !
I've had a good look at MegaSquirt's website http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html and it looks very interesting. I like the accessability (not a secret black box) and of course the cost is quite appealing, although one has to put it together them selves. I'm looking forward to further postings of your activity.
Merril
82GTV6_3.0

By Peter Webb on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 04:47 pm:


Re: Dennis DeRooy's comments on TPS:

They aren't the same. The Milano and GTV6 use Bosch part 0 280 120 302. The 164B/L/S use Bosch part 0 280 120 300. Both switch types. The 164QV uses 0 280 122 001, a potentiometer type also used on a 155 and 916 Spider/GTV. The bolt spacings are different and the D-shaft isn't deep enough. They sorta look the same but they are not compatible as bolt ons to a Milano/GTV6 throttle body. However, I confirmed today that the throttle body from above listed cars will bolt right on to a Milano and GTV6 plenum. I'll need to find a ready source of them in Europe.

Re the spark control. As Michael points out, the UMS will be released later this year. There are derivatives of the MegaSquirt using the same hardware with code modifications to control spark. They are called MegaSquirtNSpark and MegaSquirtNEDIS. Both can readily replace a Motronic system but not as simple as plug it in and go. If there is enough interest, I can discuss this and EDIS systems in general. However, this is GTV6.org so I don't want to get too off topic regarding converting other cars.

-Peter

By psc on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:27 am:


THe 155QV6 and 2.0 TS throttlebodies will also work right?

By Mats on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:25 am:


When the Spark control is avalable it will be a seriously interesting alternative and I'll certainly watch this space! *thumbs up*

Does it work with a regular 60-2 missing Bosch trigger wheel/sensor? Reluctor adapter maybe? Need an extra hallsensor or something in the distributor or on a cam?

/Mats

By Dennis de Rooy on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:46 am:


Hi Peter,

I guess this is a typical misunderstanding (Alfa used different versions in Europe an America but used the same name). I was referring to the european 164 QV (it's a 12V), you call it an S version. The QV you are referring is prolly a 24V.
The 24V TPS isn't easily adaptable, you're right on that.

By PaulG on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 08:32 am:


Peter-Since you've adapted Megasquirt to the Verde and a Spider have you done any kind of measurements in terms of power or drivability versus the stock L-Jet?

By Peter Webb on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 08:44 am:


Hi again Everyone. To answer some recent questions/comments:

psc: Yes, the 155QV and 2.0TS (Motronic) throttle body will work perfectly. The one I'm experimenting with is from a 155 2.0TS.

Mats: The MSnS, MSnEDIS will work with a 62-2 wheel very well. That's available today if you wanted to combine fuel and spark into one box. There's also the experimental MegaJolt that's a stand alone spark controller. It's still in the Beta phase but several have it working. The UMS will combine fuel and spark, EDIS, trigger wheel, WB02 controller and target AFR just to list a few features. The UMS will be more functional than the current offerings, however the MSnS and MSnEDIS can be used today to replace a Motronic system or the L-Jetronic and Bosch spark box. IOW, you get rid of 2 boxes and replace it with one.

Dennis deRooy: Ok, typical Alfa to name the same model 2 different things in 2 markets, then reuse that name for a totaly different thing in the same market. In the US, the 164B/L/S were 12 valve 2 cam, the LS is 12V 4 cam and the QV are 24V 4 cam. The B/L/S used Motronic M1.7 with a switch type TPS, the QV used Motronic M4.1 with pot type. The 155QV and 1552.0TS used the same Motronic M4.1. The late 75's (90-91, not sold in the US) and 75 2.0TS also used a Motronic M1.7. This is a cause of much confusion on the Alfa75 list due to the different models sold in different markets throughout different years.

Merrill Gordon: The open source and open design of MegaSquirt is one of its most attractive features. It's the Linux of EFI. You can use it as is, modify it, or completely rewrite it. You also have the ability to modify the hardware to suit your needs too. Something the open source world doesn't give you. Like the open source world, there are several enthusiasts writing software and designing hardware on a free basis all over the world. All the great tuning tools are the efforts of people working for free and distributing and sharing their expertise.

PaulG: There are too many mods to the Verde and Spider to list here. I'm having significant flyback problems with the Spider low-Z injectors right now and have metled to sets of transistors. Similar low-Z injectors ran fine on the Milano with limited flyback at load. The BMW guys have reported the same thing using low-Z injectors and no flyback protection. The options now are to instal the flyback board designed by an enthusiast, use inline resistors with the injectors or swap them out for comparable high-Z. I'm reluctant to spec out the cars here because 1) it's constantly changing and 2) this is all experimental so what I do may not work long term where it needs a longer field trial. Overall, any mods like porting, big valves, hot cams will benefit from the MS. Another big benefit is being able to pass emissions tests and improve drivablity of modified cars. Something seriously lacking with L-Jetronic and troublesome on Motronic.

Keep it coming guys. This is a fun development that always benefits from more input. If it wasn't for the thousands of MS users around the world, it wouldn't have evolved as well as it has. B&G do the base work, but enthusiasts like us constantly find new things to do and improvements. If any of you are MC68K assembler programmers or C++/GUI developers we can certainly start our own strain of software that will aid tuning and performance on our cars. Lets keep with the spirit of the open MegaSquirt and move our development forward through broad exchanges of ideas.

-Peter

By Paulg on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 09:10 am:


Hi Peter-Thank you for your quick response.It sounds like you're still in the experimental stage trying to figure things out.I hope you will from time to time update us on your progress.By the way have you looked at Greg Gordon's Web Sight www.oldebottles.com. I don't know if this would be of any help but he sells different injectors for Alfa's depending on performance needs.Go to the sight and go to the Italian Car section and then go to page 5 where he has items for sale.

By Peter Webb on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 10:25 am:


Let me update where I am in the MegaSquirt process. The Milano is running great on the MegaSquirt. It smoothed out my Shankle cams and produced smoother power. I'm still tuning the warm up and high RPM fueling. No flyback issues with the stock injectors however I am running higher fuel pressure so the PWM load is lower. The next step is to do some work with the plenum, runners and throttle. If you are looking to put one on your GTV6 or Milano and take off the AFM, then this should work very well in a few hours. If you're like me and seeking out more power and modifications, then it's an ongoing process of trial and error of which the MegaSquirt is only one part. I has made the other mods more significant in that the L-Jet was always the limiting factor. The Milano was the first project which is now phase-1 complete in running on mostly stock intake and injection components. Phase-2 and beyond are heavy mods to the intake, larger injectors etc. This may or may not be relevant to you guys. Everyone has their own designs and requirements. I didn't want to get too involved in mine and talk in generic terms of what the MS can do for your car and what it allows you to do to your car that you couldn't before. The experiments are much bigger than the MegaSquirt alone. Rest assured that the MS will work for you from stock to wild.

The Spider is still in development. I have the head ported, polished and shaved .025". I've replaced the VVT cams qith 10548 cams. The MegaSquirt installation is still in progress here and I can't report it runs well or consistently yet. There are issues with the Spider conversion that I didn't have with the Milano. I'll get them worked out pretty soon.

By Greg Gordon on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:22 pm:


Thanks for the plug Paul. I do indeed have high resistance injectors in just about any flow rate you could want. They will fit our cars with no mods. I hope to put them on my web site soon.

By Lord pug on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 07:32 am:


Peter,

How do we get one now?

By karmat on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 09:28 am:


Peter,

Are you saying that you can pretty much just build the MegaSquirt, connect the correct wires on the old L-Jet ECU plug, stick the MS in the L-Jet housing, replace the throttle position sensor, and you are ready to run? Does the L-Jet's separate ignition module just keep doing its job?

Would you be willing to share initial fuel maps? I'm very interested! I was looking at MS before, but was wary of having to rewire the whole car.

Thanks!
Karl

By Steve R on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 03:00 am:


Agree with Karl,
I'd looked at this before but didn't really fancy the whole rewiring scenario. If this can be built as a replacement for the "guts" of an old L-jet ECU, then suddenly it makes a lots more sense. & Looks stock too.
Getting timing control would be much better too, but it sounds like that on it's way....

Better brush up on my soldering skills !
Steve

By Peter Webb on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 05:40 pm:


Yep, that's pretty much it. You don't even *need* to replace the TPS. You can get it running just fine without it. It's exactly as you described. Solder the board together, run wires from the board connector to the L-Jet connector, plug it in and go.

And, if you have trouble with it, or while you're working on it, you can just plug the L-Jet ECU back in while you get it worked out. Once it's all running nicely, you can remove the AFM.

A couple of new discoverys in the last week or so to make this even easier.

First is the throttle body from a 155 2.0TS will bolt right on to the 6C 2.5 and 3.0 plenum and carries the correct 0 280 122 001 TPS used on the ML4.1 cars.

Second is what's called MAPdot code. MS defines acceleration as TPS voltage delta per second. IOW, if you stomp it, the TPS voltage changes 1, 2, 4V per second and signals the MS to go into accel enrichment. This and the flood-clear is the only reason for the TPS. The MAP sensor provides voltage through the ADC to represent the plenum pressure in kPa. Rapid changes in this voltage can be used to detect acceleration the same way TPS does. Someone has developed code to watch MAP instead of TPS voltage to detect acceleration removing the need for TPS.

There are a couple of trade offs. MS has a flood clear mode that basically detects 100% TPS (full open) while detecting cranking, it cuts fuel delivery completely. The switch type TPS will still activate it so we don't have to give that up. MAPdot has a slightly slower reaction than TPSdot. Probably not really significant. But it is much more accurate for accel enrichment. A problem with over enriching during acceleration is a sluggishness. Accurate accel will make accel smooth and linear with no bogging.

There's no need to crack into the wiring on your car. It even works with the combi-relay when wired correctly between the MS and L-Jet connector. Totally reversable.

That said, in many cases modifications are the very nature of the need for MS. I can understand the reluctance to cut into your wiring harness. This is exactly how I did mine. I have some pictures of the MS built directly into the L-Jet box if Michael would like to post them somewhere on the site.

How do you get one? You need to buy from 2 sources. First go to www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html and order the partial kit from B&G. Next you need to populate the kit with standard electronic components, capacitors, resistors and diodes. There is a standard BOM from Digikey.com that is pre-prepared. There are alternate vendors or you can get them locally by printing out the BOM and going to your local Fry's or the like. Then find yourself a dead L-Jet ECU. I'll follow up with a description of how to prepare the case to accept the MegaSquirt board and the wiring diagram.

Look at www.megasquirt.info. Look at the various sections of the MegaManual on the right paying extra attention to the assembly section. You can download the entire 190 page manual in PDF and read it locally. It's the most important part of the MegaSquirt project.

Then join the MegaSquirt Yahoo group and read while you solder. You can do the whole thing in a weekend but I'd recommend going slowly and absorbing as much as you can.

On the question of spark. You can install the MS without touching the ignition. There are ways to delete it, ways to improve it and ways to make the MegaSquirtnSpark work with it. The MSnS uses the standard MS hardware (nothing more to solder) where you just download new code into the MS unit (takes about 40 seconds). Once the MS is in place you can add on and modify as you go. For example, I removed the Bosch spark module from my Spider and use a Marelli Plex ignition with lots of advance. Something lacking in the Bosch unit. I also got rid of the VVT and use 10548 Euro cams which rev a little better and give better torque. It's all wide open. The more you learn the more you'll be able to do.

Get you're soldering irons ready.

-Peter

By karmat on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 09:53 am:


Excellent! I'll definitely be checking it out. I've got a slightly modified 3.0L in my car and I'm guessing a fuel injection setup with proper map information will get me a small power boost. Ignition to come later... (perhaps from MegaJolt Jr Lite). Thanks for all the info.

Karl

By Steve R on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 10:52 am:


Hi Peter,

Apologies in advance for the long post, but I hope to clarify a few questions for myself and others on the site. For info my car is a Euro 83 GTV6 with 3.0 12v, 104/294 CB cams, 535i hybrid AFM, CSC manifolds etc running L-jet modified for more WOT fuelling & it runs well but I’m not pretending it’s ideal !

I’ve been researching the Mega squirt build & configure info…. I’d looked at this box before and discounted it as a bit beyond the amount of work I was prepared to do, but know I know it can be made to interface with the stock loom I’ve changed my mind. My aim is to make the ECU’s interchangeable until I’m happy with it and then ditch the AFM last. I feel reasonably comfortable building, testing and tuning this in general leaving the ignition as is for now & your 155 throttle valve TPS discovery is a very good find!

Questions centred around gutting an old L-jet ECU for this purpose: -

D37 interface. Not having a pin out diagram to hand for the stock L-jet loom connector, I’m concerned the pin out for MS & L-Jet will be (must be!) different? If so, can you advise which part of the wiring I have to change to substitute the L-jet connector for the D37 on the MS? If someone has the pin out diagram for the standard L-jet connector please post!

Relays etc. Presuming I can make the Bosch connector work such that the MS becomes a straight swap for the L-jet ECU, can I presume all the standard L-jet relay functions will work as they should (I’d guess so)

IAT & WT sensor calibration. I see the Bosch sensors are different from the GM ones. Did you use the easier option of changing the bias resistor from 2.4kohm to 2.2kohm or did you recompile the controller code with “EasyTherm”?

Injector Flyback. With 6 Low impedance injectors did you encounter problems with flyback (breakdown EMF surge) voltage? If so, were you able to solve with pulse width modulation feature in the MS or did you add the flyback board or just injector resistors?

Any other issues I should be concerned with?
regards
Steve

By Jeff Lang on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 02:51 pm:


Steve-
I don't want to interrupt this thread too much. My car is very similar to yours, and I'd like to ask you a few questions. If you don't mind, send me an e-mail address.
Thanks,
Jeff jel@arkansas.net

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 10:30 pm:


Steve,

All excellent questions and I see you've done your homework.

The interchangablity you mention is exactly what I did. I was more comfortable being able to plug the L-Jet back in at any time. It's a wise way to go until everything is tuned nicely then ditch the AFM. You can always keep an ECU and AFM in the trunk should problems arise. It's a 15 minute swap back. 2 minutes with the AFM in place.

On the wiring, I have an MS to L-Jet diagram that's very easy to follow. I've sent Michael some pictures of the gutted L-Jet box and the wiring I did. I'll also send him the diagram in PDF format for the wiring. The DB37 is left off the board and I wired directly into the holes on the board to the L-Jet connector. If you've opened an L-Jet box you'll see it's a double board. The top one unscrews along with the case mounted transistors. After that, you drill out the soft rivets that hold the connected to the case. The bottom board comes out. Cut the pins to the board and use some #40 screws and nuts to screw the connector back to the front of the case. Solder the wires to the open holes on the MS. Cut and file the L-Jet connector pins to make them blades. Then use connectors or just solder the wire directly to the pin. The pins on the L-Jet connector are numbered to make matching easy. The L-Jet box closes and screws as stock and looks completely stock from the outside. There is the issue of remote mounting the transistors for heat transfer. Which segues into the flyback issue. I had no flyback problems with the 6 low-z injectors. The TIP32 transistor needs a good heatsink to handle the flyback. I mounted it remotely to the L-Jet case with leads off the board. You can also substitute a TIP36 or TIP42 with 65/100V breakdown or change the Zener to breakdown at a lower voltage. B&G offer a flyback add-on board that does additional clamping. Or you can wire inline resistors and turn off PWM completely so they behave like high-z injectors. I've fried the flyback circuit 3 times already on the Spider with 4 low-z (and IMO undersized) injectors. I have the fuel pressure cranked up on the Milano so the PW was fairly low. 4ms cruise, 7ms WOT. The Spider was showing 14ms open time and I think that's what fried it. If you're not afraid to work through these issues, they can be resolved with some trial and error. The flyback board is the best solution but more work.

The B&G relay board isn't needed if you connect the grounds (fuel pump and injectors) from the combi-relay. It takes the place of the B&G relay board very well.

I did use the 2.2K bias resistors for the Bosch sensors. I think they read a little low. Not sure how much I trust the Alfa gauges so I can't say for sure. I would guess 10% low which is no big deal when WUE stops at 140degF anyway, and a 10% error on the ideal gas law (PV=NRT) won't affect it considerably.

I'll say that tuning can be labourious. Especially getting the priming pulse and WUE right since you only get 1 or 2 shots at it a day. If you can get it to idle and run right at temp, the rest is only an inconvenience until you get it dialed in. The other pitfall can be with high overlap cams. Those C&B might cause some issues. You can go hybrid alpha/N for idle, or just use the idle-PWM code and ignore MAP, or use a MAP filter inline with a MIG tip to create a psuedo 1-way valve to stop the MAP pulse. Anything between 24-55 Hg vacuum at idle should produce a usable MAP. I'm right on the edge so idle is still a little lumpy but not as bad as it was with the L-Jet.

Ok, an equally long answer so if you're still awake I hope this answers your questions. Based on your questions, it sounds like you have the skills to make it work well. Happy to answer or clarify anything for you. Feel free to ask.

BTW, I'd be happy to share my initial VE table. Won't be exactly right for your car but it'll be pretty close as a starting point.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 10:59 pm:


Ok got some pictures posted of the MS in the L-Jet box and the PDF diagram.

See: http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/megasquirt/index.htm

-Peter

By Steve R on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 06:35 am:


Thanks for the comprehensive reply Peter.

I can now see how you made it interchangable for L-Jet, the photos are excellent (says a thousand words). I'd really appreciate the MS to L'jet pin out diagram - please post...I just can't find the L-jet pin out !

Thanks for the offer of initial tables, I'd like to take you up on that offer, it'll certainly speed up my initial tuning. I accept your points about tuning, I didn't expect it to be easy, but I like tinkering so see this as an ongoing process!

I think I might just avoid the flyback voltage problem altogether and make up the flyback board anyway, there's plenty of room inside the L-jet casing by the look of it. Otherwise Sods law says it would burn out and stand me somewhere at the most inconvenient time ! :-)

fyi The car idle is reasonably "acceptable" as is, so hopefully the cam overlap won't be a big deal, as you say I can always smooth out the MAP spikes at tickover to help.

Peter & Jeff my email is
steven_rosser@yahoo.com
Note The space in my mail address is actually an underscore, it just doesn't look like that in the post
Thanks again
regards

By karmat on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 06:58 am:


Pinout for L-Jet:

http://www.firstfives.org/faq/ljet/ecu_pinout.html

This is the same for all L versions as far as I know. The Euro boxes appear not to use the O2 sensor. Don't know if that's going to be a problem for MS or not. The 3.0L 75 harness which I got with my Euro 3.0L engine didn't have anywhere to even plug in the O2 sensor. Just letting you know. The Milano harness I bought DOES have it, though. The Pinout above labels the O2 input.

Peter, yes, I too would love the pinout info for L-Jet to MS if you have it! Otherwise I'm certain I can figure it out.

Karl

By Steve R on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 07:01 am:


Oops & apologies just seen the link at bottom of photos for wiring diagram. Excellent stuff.

cheers Peter

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 09:14 am:


Moved the link for the L-Jet to MS diagram to the top and enlarged it so it's apparent. The pictures enlarge if you click them for a better view. Hope you all find it useful.

The diagram came from Peter Florance at firstfives.org as mentioned by Karl for the L-Jet pinouts. He's an avid MegaSquirter of 528's and active on the MS Yahoo group.

This diagram won't work for a 4 cylinder L-Jet Alfa (Spider). It uses one of the listed injector out pins to control the VVT (obviously because it only needs 4 injector outs, not 6).

-Peter

By Zamani on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 10:29 am:


Peter,

I have the mild CB cams (10.4mm lift). Are your cams similar? I have absolutely no problem with a lumpy idle. In fact, it idles as smooth as a stock Milano with L-Jet.

I'm very interested in this project and am going to build one for my mom's 3.0 GTV6.

By Steve R on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 10:55 am:


thanks Karmat

Mine didn't have an O2 either, but I installed one as the CSC manifolds had an O2 port in place. Output currently just running in car to a decent multimeter (0.00-2.00 volt range) for tuning visibility purposes.

I'll wire the heated element into the high current side of the fuel pump circuit and the O2 output to the MS pin 23. The case will already have a few extra holes for MAP tube, leds & serial port anyway.
regards

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 08:36 pm:


MegaSquirt maps are posted.

http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/megasquirt/index.htm

Click the link and 'save as'

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 09:41 am:


Zamani,

I have AL6216 cams, 9.5 lift, 245 duration standard timing. The idle is lumpy at best under 1100 RPM with the L-Jet. Power up top. The MS smoothed the idle out quite a bit, even cold. It won't idle cold with the L-Jet, I have to keep it feathered.

FWIW, the Spider has the stock Bosch intake with 10548 cams @ 102 lobe centers and it idles better with the L-Jet than the MS.

Which C&B do you have?

-Peter

By Steve R on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 03:29 am:


For info & to prove I meant it ! I've now ordered my Megasquirt kits & parts.

I'm going to build main ecu, flyback board, stimulator & also Megaview too.

Just off to an electronics store at lunchtime to buy the few extra items required.

Wish me luck, I'll post how this goes !

By chood on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 07:15 am:


Good luck with this and keep us posted.

By Peter Webb on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 10:41 am:


Good luck Steve. Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions. My fuel map is still posted to my web page once you get the assembly complete.

Download Lance Garndiners MegaManual and make sure you join the Yahoo Megasquirt list. I can probably help you through any of the assembly and testing parts as I've rebuilt mine several times due to flyback problems (not in the Milano). I have the latest MegaManual that I can email to you if you need it. It's about 2mb in PDF format.

Are you building inside the L-Jet box or using the standard box with the pigtail to the L-Jet? If you look at my site again, I've posted pictures of the standard MS box with a short pigtail cable I made from the DB37 to the L-Jet connector I snagged from a spare box. If you bought a Stim, it'll make testing much easier.

The PDF of the pinout diagram is still there. This diagram assumes you've done the FP mod that Peter Florance posted. I didn't bother with it and just grounded the combi-relay to turn on the pump. Once you remove the AFM, you'll need to do this to turn on the fuel pump. For the time being with mine, I've just jumpered AFM pins to make the FP run. This is temporary and not safe for long term use. If you get into an accident, you want the FP to shut off.

Good luck with the assembly.

-Peter

By Steve R on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:27 am:


Hi Peter, I have the megamanual (seems pretty comprehensive)& have joined the yahoo group.

The pigtail & box option is neat, but I think I'm just going to build it straight into my spare L-Jet box & use the flybackboard - also built into the L-jet box (luckily the lJ box is quite big !

I'm looking for the FP mod you mention but can't find it yet, I see a few psots from him but can't find that one. Can you point out out for me (I'm being dumb I'm afraid)

cheers

By AR gtv 2,0 86 on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 09:39 am:


hi

im am going to instal MS on my 2,0L gtv motor. i will be using the bosh l-jet intake. What throtel body and tps shold i use. Dose the 155 throtel body fit straight on?

By gtv6gp on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 12:14 am:


we have just got 140kw at the wheels from a standard 75 3L using EMS

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 01:21 pm:


Haven't been monitoring the group lately. I've got the Milano out and tuned using the MAPdot code for accel bypassing the TPS for the time being until the new triple throttle is ready. I'm measuring 214RWHP using the MS, stock plenum and AFM removed.

I'm pretty pleased with the results.

-Peter

By Greg Gordon on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:04 pm:


Wow, thats some serious power.

By Sam on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 04:01 am:


Peter,

I have been reading your posts on the 75 group, your technical knowledge is impressive, but you loose me on some of your discussions, I think you have been talking about a "ford" wheel and the different paths to take for different ign timing setups, but let me ask you this, will you/do you have plans of offerring a plug in 3.0 and/or 2.5 MS system for our Alfa's? I would love to have an MS system on my GTV6, but don't think I have the time to learn all the technical stuff you know.

By bteoh on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 04:17 am:


Hi Peter,

I too would like to know if you can provide a plug and play Megasquirt ECU for the GTV6. Thanks for any info. and you can email me privately regarding costs.

Cheers,
Brian Teoh
Perth, Australia

By PaulG on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 07:37 am:


How about just a plug and go system.I don't have a lot of time to play.

By joey on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 11:43 am:


yeah, that would be great if someone offered a fully assembled Megasquirt system, with perhaps some base maps - so we could accurately compare its price to some of the cheaper retail EMS solutions out there.

cheers

joe

By Greg Gordon on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 01:28 pm:


Hmm, I like Paul's plug and GO idea. That's what someone needs to make. Eventually we will have to go to this system or one like it due to the rising cost and decreasing supply of L-Jetronic parts.

By joey on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 01:40 pm:


aha ! Greg "L-Jet" Gordon finally yields...

muhahahaha !

By PaulG on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 04:30 pm:


Yes-Since I just bought an 81 spider with Spica Injection a "Plug and Go" Magasquirt sounds cheaper than the cost to replace a Spica Fuel Pump.By the way I bought the Spider so I would be putting less commuter miles on my GTV6.I know I sometimes wish for more power in my GTV6.Compared with this 81 spider it feels like Superman! Boy that spider is a dog. In fact I'm having the intake manifold changed out to the earlier less restrictive ones. This should make it easier to get up hills.

By Anonymous on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 06:26 pm:


PaulG,

You should get Euro 2-piece exhaust manifolds, ditch the air-pump if there is one, and put on an electric fan.
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Post by P.Webb »

Let's not run away with the idea that I'm in business to do this MegaSquirt thing.

I don't mean to sound brash here, but there are some realities you need to accept about this conversion before taking it on...

First, this is a DIY system, not a professional grade system. It doesn't compare to aftermarket EMS systems. If you want a turn key plug, resolve yourself to spending the $1000+ for the Electromotive that offers assembled, waranteed units with support.

The responsiblity of the MegaSquirt is on the assembler and installer to understand how things work.

The appropriate analogy here is Linux. You download a distribution. You install it, and the install fails. Who do you call? It's freeware. It comes as a package that you are responsible for installing and administering. If you know nothing about Unix, it's not going to go well. The responsiblity is on you to learn Unix.

The MegaSquirt community consensus on preassembled units is this:

If someone wants to charge money to assemble a unit, it's ok with them. What someone charges for their time to assemble the unit is up to them. It ultimately benefits the community because it reduces the number of assembly related questions asked in the forums. If someone wants to help install a unit, same deal. It reduces the support load on the community when someone has already installed in a similar car and can explain how it's done and share base tuning.

However, once the unit is installed, or something goes wrong with it, the installer is free of any indemnity or warrantee. It's in the best interest of the owner to understand how it works even if they pay someone for their time and experience to get it up and running.

If I were to install Linux for you, I wouldn't be available to fix everything that goes wrong with it or answer how-tos. I'd turn it over running and advise you to learn Unix in case you need to modify it later.

If that's what you want, I'd advise you to buy Windows (shudder).

Same is true of MegaSquirt. You can't escape the assembly and install sections. You need to know about it. You don't have to know how to code. On both Linux and MegaSquirt you can modify and install code to provide custom functions. Not required but useful.

So, everything you see me post to this forum and the Alfa75 group you will have to know to make this project successful.

I will disagree with Greg Gordon on the motives for the MegaSquirt. L-Jet isn't that expensive or scarce. I've been successfully testing BMW L-Jet parts that are direct replacements and improvements that are VERY cheap and plentiful. ECU's and AFMs can be had daily on EBay. Boneyards are full of them. If you spend the research time you can find cheap plentiful L-Jet replacement parts from other cars that work just great on an Alfa. I found a BMW box that works better than a Zat box with all the fueling and deleting the rev limit for under $100 on EBay compared to the $400 that Zat gets. Tested extensively on the 2.5 with great results.

The MegaSquirt isn't really an L-Jet replacement. It's an improvement. It takes much more work and effort to make it work correctly. L-Jet still baffles most people. If you struggle with L-Jet and hall sensor/transistorized ignitions, the MegaSquirt is not for you.

Again, I'm not trying to be a hard-ass about this. Some realities you need so as not to get in over your head.

I will certainly help out with people who want to do this. I'll share my tuning files (I won't support them though). I'll assemble a unit for someone for $100 over costs (a bargain) but it's yours to install and make run. I won't support the thing if you blow it up with flyback voltage. If you're saying 'whats flyback voltage' right now, you're not ready to do it. Please be honest with yourself about your understanding and abilities before taking it on.

-Peter

By Greg Gordon on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 11:21 pm:


Peter we are all counting on you to make us an inexpensive plug and go system, L-Jet's days are numbered

By GTV6GPTT on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 12:06 am:


if anyone is seriously intrested,

i will make a full EMS Stinger kit for gtv6\75\90

which is ready to fit.

depending on orders est. $1500-$1800. AUD

By joey on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 02:48 am:


well u raise a few good points peter, but let me ask you this.. because you have installed the system on our cars, can you tell us the exact cost to get that system up and running on the alfa? that megasquirt website sells the kit in bits, not sure what is needed and what isnt, and if you need to buy any additional equipment if stock sensors arent compatible with the ECU.

gtv6gptt, what is the break up on that cost? i know the ems itself retails for $995AUD, again - what additional sensors / parts etc are needed that brings the price up to 1500-1800..?

cheers

joe

By Sam on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 03:50 am:


Peter,

I am willing to learn about fuel injection and ignition more, but can you point me in a good direction to start? I am so far behind in most of what you talk about, I think hanging out on the MS forum will only confuse me more and slow down the higher discussions if someone has to translate for me. Thanks!

By PaulG on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 08:03 am:


Peter-I'm very honest with my self regarding my abilities regarding fuel injection.They are extremely limited although I have replaced some sensors on my L-Jet from talking to Greg Gordon and using his sight. The result has made a better running car.My question then is there a plug and go system out on the market currently?Of course I would love to learn about fiddeling with MegaSquirt but I don't think I could financially afford to make the mistakes in the learning curve.

By bmacf on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:07 am:


Peter, thanks for the helpful information on MS. Keep the info coming!

One question I have for you is on the pot type TPS. Did you ever find one or an alternative that can be obtained in the US? I'd like to work on an MS build this summer now that my milano is running.

Thanks,
Bill in MD

By Zamani on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:20 am:


My TPS for Autronic is the pot type and I have the aluminum adapter plate for it so it mounts to the TB. It's from Beninca.

By JimGreek on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:32 am:


Bmasf,
You can find the TPS from a company in the UK called RS COMPONENTS.They are an electronics supply house-a BIG one!They list it in their catalog as "Rotary Position Sensor" and it costs very little.Its the exact part used by many aftermarket EFI brands.They ship worldwide.
Jim K.

By Peter Webb on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:24 pm:


For the TPS use a throttle body for a 164 that bolts right onto the Milano/GTV6 plenum and use Bosch number 0 280 122 001.

You can make a simple adapter plate from Home Depot much easier than ordering parts from overseas. Using that same Bosch part #.

What you're interested in is the D-shaft type, rotation and bolt spacing. The connectors are the same so no wire hacking.

I'll see if Besic can whip up a batch from his shop if people here are interested in buying them. I'll ask him about it tomorrow.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:46 pm:


Lots of comments on my tyrade there...

I only have experience or at least research with Electromotive and Motec. Forget Motec, it costs more than your car. The TEC-II is very popular with Alfa tuners. Steck uses it extensively.

That still doesn't insulate you from understanding of engine management and tuning. You're stuck learning how engine management systems work I'm afraid.

Don't be afraid of the MegaSquirt group. I've watched people grow there, including myself. Generally, people come in with either electronics and no mechanical, or mechanical and no electronic knowledge. Some come in with neither. It's a reachable hill to climb. I spent months just reading and learning before I dove in. The same questions are asked over. Even if something goes over your head the first time, it will come back around. Absorb what you can and it'll slowly make sense.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from trying this. I wanted to set realistic expectations.

As many of you know, I'm doing an install session at the AROC-US Convention this year. I'll bring pre-assembled and tested units with me, which I'll charge $100 over the cost of parts to cover my time to assemble them. I'll make about $5/hr at that rate so I'm not 'profiting' from this. I'll have the units pre-mapped for either V6 or I4 engines and loaded with the MAPdot code which bypasses the TPS until you can get one fitted. If the adapter thing works out, I'll bring some parts with me for TPSdot accel too. I'll explain what those mean in another post.

We'll spend a couple of hours in a classroom where I'll explain the workings and then a couple of hours doing a physical install. Everyone will be responsible for their own mechanical parameters. IOW, you'll need your own tools and laptop. You will install the unit into the car yourself with my help. I'll take everyone over the software in the classroom session and provide a CD of all the tuning tools and code files and instructions on how to download new maps and new code. The unit will install with the AFM in place. It's a little more work to remove the AFM which I won't have time to do then. I'll document what's involved thought.

You will need some understanding of EFI, some mechanical ability, some tools and a laptop. I won't be touching ignition at this time. It's an L-Jet ECU replacement only, with the exception of allowing for swapping the TPS.

I'll be starting a forum somewhere (possibly here) to publicize and coordinate this event in the next month. I hope to get the MegaSquirt conversion article published in the Owner in May, then a follow up regarding the mass-install in the June issue in preparation for the July session in New Hampshire.

If time/resources allow, I will probably have some boxes left over. After the convention, I'll be offering those to people for the same deal but the won't get the hands-on support like they would at the convention session.

I'll post where the forum will be once I get it set up.

-Peter

By Greg Gordon on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 09:40 pm:


That's pretty exciting Peter!

By gtv6gp on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:36 pm:


the kit will be all parts needed to use a aftermarket system.

as simple as pluging it all in. yourself from a instruction sheet.

price depending on paid orders.

there will be add on option such as coil packs, shift light, base maps, stainless steel intake tube with pod filter.

By JimGreek on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:51 pm:


Very good stuff,should be a great meeting Peter. Too far for me to be there,damn!
I saw a good friend last night,the local rep for Emerald EFI. What we'll do,is make a male/female adaptor from my car's Motronic ECU plug to the Emerald ECU.Only the AFM will have to be removed. We will then program the thing on the road+dyno and see what happens to my 202hp.Should be an interesting experiment-for FREE!If its worth it, I'll make it permanent-and pay for it.If its not, its still good education.
Jim K.

By marc van woersem on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 07:52 am:


let us know what the result is.
i read in a book;how to tune and modify bosch injections.and the author says it will bring you 1 ,one hp!!
i am curious

By JimGreek on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 09:35 am:


Marc, I'm hoping for a lot more than...1hp on a modified 3L currently using std Motronic(mine,that is!).
Jim K.

By PaulG on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:41 pm:


Peter webb-I sent you an e-mail

By psc on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 06:01 pm:


Peter,

Put me down for one.

Publio

By gtv6gp on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 05:47 am:


if any one is intrested in a EMS kit.

they can email me at: alfauto@optushome.com.au

please include information on you current setup inc. model, motor, mods, etc.

By gtv6gp on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 05:51 am:


if any one is intrested in a EMS kit.

they can email me at: alfauto@optushome.com.au

please include information on you current setup inc. model, motor, mods, etc.

By Peter Webb on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:30 pm:


I got all your emails but I'm a little behind in things right now. I'll be responding to you some time this week. Sorry for the delay.

JimK. I'd be honoured to have you at the session in New England. I can't tell you how many times your book has been useful to me over the years.

If there's anything we can do to entice you to come, let us know.

-Peter

By JimGreek on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:55 am:


Many thanks Peter for the invite,but its very difficult time-wise (and expensive!)to make the return trip from Greece!I can only be glad that through this forum I have "met" a lot of knowledgeable people sharing experience+fun concerning AR.I especially appreciate the no-profit spirit you have,a definite rarity and virtue in our days.Keep up the good work,ALL of you!I think it really is sad to converse with a lot of people from all over the world,knowing you'll never meet them,isn't it?
The closest I can come to anyone in the US is Tucson,AZ. I'll probably be there in late July or August (wrong time of the year,TOO hot!)for business with Raytheon Missile Systems Company. Should be there for a couple of weeks at most.
Jim K.

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 04:14 pm:


Jim,

Good timing on that trip. That's exactly when the convention is. Can you make a stop-over in Boston on the return?

I'm really arm-twisting now

By Simon Holywell on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 07:13 pm:


Peter,

What is the fuel pump modification you mention here? I can't seem to find anything about it any where on the MegaSquirt newsgroups or Alfa BBs.

Thanks,
Simon

By Greg Gordon on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 01:23 am:


Hey Jim, I am curious what you are doing at Raytheon in Tuscon. My mom is a big wig there.

By JimGreek on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 07:46 am:


Peter,its too early to be able to plan anything yet.First,the definite time of the trip has to be finalized and this depends on a lot of factors outside my control.It should be around that time,with what we know now.It sure would be nice to see an AR get-together in the US!!
Greg,I can tell you,but then I'd have to kill you!!(hahah!!)My visit has to do with SHORAD systems and that's all you'll get without pulling my fingernails out!(and my name ISN'T Bond!).
Jim K.

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 09:25 am:


Simon,

There's a small modification to the MegaSquirt fuel pump run circuit that starts the pump from the combi relay without it needing signal on 88a from the AFM.

I'll copy it from the MegaSquirt site and post it to my site http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/megasquirt tonight.

Jim K, do you mind if I email you off the board to discuss the convention details?

-Peter

By Zamani on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:03 am:


Peter,

What compression is your engine running? DIdi you go with JE or stock 3.0 (non-S) pistons and shaved heads?

I'm trying to figure out if I need bigger injectors. I have 9.5:1 pistons, but the heads are mildly ported with 3-angle valve job, CB cams and a HUGE intake pipe . Still running the stock injectors and stock FPR.

I found a set of rebuilt Jag XJ6/75 1.8T injectors for a good price (rebuilt).

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:05 pm:


Zamani,

I'm running stock 3.0 pistons with shaved heads. Running ~10:1.

Injector sizing formula is:

Injector Size = (hp*BSFC)/(#cyls*DC)

BSFC is .45 for N/A engines, .55 for boosted.
DC (duty cycle) = 85% for peak-and-hold low-z injectors

I'm running the stock 187cm/3 injectors @ 55psi rail pressure. The formula for injector flow rates increasing pressure is:

new-flow = rated-flow * sqrt(actual-pressure/rated-pressure)

The stock injectors are rated at 187cm/3 @45psi rail pressure where they actually run at 36.5 psi rail pressure with an actual flow or 168cm/3.

Pressure chart reads:

35psi 165cm/3
45psi 187cm/3
55psi 206cm/3
65psi 225cm/3
75psi 241cm/3

However, raising the pressure increases the opening time so the actual PW is less than expected not more because the PW calculated by the ECU is based on 1.0ms opening time. With something like the MS, you can adjust for opening time to raise the PW time accordingly. You can still run out of duty cycle under high RPM because the opening time + PW time can exceed 1rpm and send you over 100% duty cycle or full open.

The huge intake pipe still won't account for the AFM restriction.

I attribute the biggest gains from the MS to getting rid of the AFM, even though it was a larger BMW type, the vane still caused restriction. Now I get full velocity of the 3" pipe all the way to the throttle and plenum.

Hook a vacuum gauge up to your plenum (T from the FPR line) and watch your plenum vac at varying loads and RPM.

Is this on the Autronic car? Is it mass/air or speed/density?

-Peter

By Zamani on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:19 pm:


Yeap, the Autronic car, speed density system.

I think I need to get bigger injectors. My wideband AF meter says I'm running fine. But I don't think I am, this is probably due to the positioning of the O2 sensor. It doesn't make sense that my car is not running lean, because it's only flowing 165cc/min at 35 psi.

I think I will definitely go with bigger injectors and call up Vince Bachu for a 75 Motronic FPR which will run at 45 psi and bolt right on to the fuel rail. The only dilemma is, if I go with the barbed injectors, I can't go with the 164 runners and adaptor plates so I can make use of the QV 45mm runners in the future.

BTW I'm using 0.47 as BSFC.

On the dyno test (SMOG) it the SMOG dyno's tail pipe sensor showed 15.1:1 and my AF meter showed 14.6:1. Still passed smog with a big margin though . So I must put the O2 sensor bung elsewhere (after the merge collector) and recalibrate it.

Anyway I saw another version of MS, not MSNS but some other type (look on Alfabb, somebody posted a link there). This is for my mom's GTV6 3.0.

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 01:03 pm:


I use the Malpassi asjustable FRP with a custom T made into the rail from AN -6 fittings. I can go all the way up to 90psi. I have a gauge attached so I can monitor the pressure.

My custom intake is actually done. I'm using the 164 plenum, 45mm runners and injector plate. You can get a custom rail made up for o-ring type injectors. Check www.rossmachineracing.com. His extruded fuel rail is very cheap. Tap the end and use AN -6 fittings to a remote mounted AFPR to adjust pressure. The o-ring injectors are much cheaper and available than the barb type, and they are mostly high-z unless you use the huge TBI type. You don't need anything that large (550cm/3). You can pick up a set of 19-21lb injectors for well under $100. Try them for a 305/350 SBC. Look here:

http://listings.ebaymotors.com/Air-Inta ... overrideZ1

For an adjustable, try the MSD-2220 unit for $50 @ Summit or Bosch 0 280 160 001 from a Porsche 914.

What WB02 are you using? I'm building the DIY-WB board to install into mine. Downside is it uses the L1H1 Honda sensor that's pricey compared to the Bosch LSU4 that's real cheap these days.

The MS variant you saw is probably the MS-AVR being pushed by some guy named Marcel. It's a lot closer to the EFI-332 project. It's expensive, complicated and the support is limited (mainly due to Marcels attitude). It's supposedly 'open' like the MS is but he keeps tight reign on it.

The standard MS/MSnS will be fine for the GTV6. If you must have the additional features of the AVR and onboard WB02 controller, the UMS will be out later this year.

Rumour has it, there's an MS/UMS piggyback board on its way out as an add-on to the MS to turn existing hardware into a UMS as a plug-in.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 08:46 pm:


I finally got my custom intake finished. It's not on the car yet. I have some pictures posted mounted on the valve cover. This is just the intake, no fuel rail or injectors.

I'll get it remounted on the dummy block with the fuel delivery mounted some time next week.

http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/intake

Enjoy, please post comments.

By Ben on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 10:17 pm:


Christ!

By Zamani on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 10:48 pm:


Peter,

Are the 3 pair of runners, seperated internally (in the plenum) ? Don't you think the throttle's total area is too big. I'm curious if the throttle will be ultra-sensitive.

By Sam on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 03:50 am:


Peter, if they are not seperated internally, are they stepped at all?

By Barry on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 04:49 am:


Peter,nice job,but i humbly believe the area is waaay to much.I did a turbo 3.5l with only 2 t/b and the effect was the same as an on off switch.Fully closed or fully open.I then went back to a single t/b and it worked fine.

A variation on your plenum.Have you opened the 6 runners up as well? I see its the 155 type plenum your`e using with the small runners.
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Post by P.Webb »

That is a common plenum with the 3 throttles feeding it, and will have 45mm runners to the heads on the 164 injector plate matched to the ports on the head. The MS S/D system needs common plenum vacuumn and IAT as close to the throttle as possible (dry).

Forced induction is a totally different ballgame when it comes to plenums and throttles. The turbo pressurizes the plenum up to 250kpa. On an N/A motor, the challenge is how quickly you get it to atmo (100kpa) on accel for the initial gulp, then keeping it atmo. There's no doubt these are overkill. The linkage is linear right now. I'm going to see how it runs. I can make the #1 throttle a slide link so it progresses before the other 2. If it's totally unstreetable, I can disconnect 1 or 2 of the throttle rods to gain drivablity and reconnect them at the track.

We do have a plan for progressive throttle opening if it becomes too hard to drive. This is all experimental right now. I'll keep you posted on what we find as we tune.

-Peter

By Zamani on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 12:19 pm:


Actually, I thought about it, and this is not really a problem, restrictor plates should be able to solve an oversensitive throttle. I'm still toying the idea about the 164 runners (39mm for now) combined with either spica throttles (which are about 40mm) a bigger sheet metal plenum.

Do you guys know if the Bosch Design III injectors will fit the 164 fuel rail? I suspect the GTA uses these injectors. Supposedly it is the latest design from Bosch (maybe since 2000 onwards) and has better fuel atomization.

By Peter Webb on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 04:08 pm:


Zamani,

The gig with these injectors is the spray pattern. It's designed for 4 valve so the fuel hits the back of the valve and (supposedly) atomizes from the heat built up. With a 2 valve engine, you might end up with worse atomization.

Just a thought.

P.S. That restrictor plate thing sounds way to NASCAR for me

-Peter

By Zamani on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 06:37 pm:


Peter,

AFAIK, even OHV engines use these new style injectors.

Barry,

What about bolting the balljount to a plate. The plate should have 4 bolts. The plate will then bolt onto the A-arm. Should prove tougher to move when you hit hard bumps.

Most camber plates for Jappers, have 3 bolts of more.

By Barry on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 09:44 pm:


Z,excellent idea!!will run with it today and let you know.

Barry

By maurizio on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:47 am:


Barry,

upper arms look fantastic, would make them the same when I had a little more budget. Zamani is on the right track. Spread the forces, using 4 bolts ~ M10. Use on the top use nice thick (~4 mm) and large diameter rings. Or two plates running from left to right (2x). That will withstand the forces.

Saluti

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 01:51 pm:


Would you guys mind moving the control arm discussion over to the suspension section?

Thanks

-Peter

By Zamani on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:48 pm:


Peter,

Did you buy the GRM mag this month? It says the low impedence P&H injectors can control low speed fuelling better (quicker opening and shut due to higher current).

With MS are you using low Z L-Jet injectors from a BMW now? What's the flow rate at 43.5 psi?

When you move up to the 164 intake, what injectors are you going to use?

I'm still looking around for a 164 intake setup... if you've any leads, lemme know.

By Barry on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:42 am:


Mega Squirt.........?


Barry

Barry,

Since the runners look almost the same as the stock 164 runnners, why did you custom build one? Aren't the GTA/QV runners big enough ?

By gtv6gp on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 06:28 pm:


they look alot bigger and longer to me..

By Daniel on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:22 pm:


QV runners taper at the bottom don't they?

Barry, what are you trying to put through those things, complete competitor cars? They're huge !!

By Barry on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 04:24 am:


These suckers(.....)are only 44mm o.d ,42mm i.d.These are to be used on a 3.0l s/turbo.
Z,The intakes are very expensive from Alfa over here(R500.00 each)These cost me R250.00 and 2 hours to make,all in.

Barry

By Peter Webb on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 01:25 pm:


Z,

Yep, the low-z P&H are preferred by the TBI crowd because they're using 550cc injectors that need the control to get to idle.

I'm using the Alfa injectors @ 60psi rail pressure and modified opening time (for the additional pressure) right now. On the new intake, I have some 24lb SBC high-z injectors. I don't think they'll be enough though. I'd like to try some 29lb Accel or the 29lb type-3 injectors from an LS-1 (fitment depending).

What are you looking for in the way of 164 intakes? I have access to some 164 gear here. See my question to Barry below. It might make for the killer combo with the MS.

-----

Barry,

Hey, that's $37US in parts. Pretty cheap. How about making up a batch for us over here. I'll pony up the initial $ for a run of 10 (1 for myself of course).

Can you email me off board with a quote to make 10 sets of them?

I wonder if something can be done with varying lengths and diameters to increase the Helmholtz effect in them....

Thanks

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 01:27 pm:


In need of some parts help again...

Does someone have the throttle cable for an LHD 75TS out and handy? If someone could post the length, I'd be grateful. If someone has one hanging around that they'd like to sell me, even better.

TIA for any help with this. (the stock 75QV cable is too short on the new throttle setup).

-Peter

By PaulG on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 03:26 pm:


Regarding fuel injection systems,has anyone checked out www.sdsefi.com? Seems to be more of a plug and go type set up.I know nothing about it.The only thing is that if the supply of L-Jet parts is starting to dry up and get more expensive,would people not be forced to go to aftermarket systems in the long run?

By Peter Webb on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 06:19 am:


Got that intake installed. Take a look at

http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/install

I'll post results and more pictures once I get it tuned and running well.

-Peter

By adam on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 11:15 pm:


on the subject, dose any1 know about changing the fuel rail form barb to clip on, like the later motors? with about major moddin

By adam on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:16 am:


does any one know ?

By Luis on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:11 am:


I think the best option is to put 164 or v6 24v fuel rails whith moded intake runners.

If you want bigger injectors, the hose on the Bmw fuel rail is longer than alfa ones, you can cut the hose and put it directly to the Alfa fuel rail, i have this done in my car.

By Zamani on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:37 am:


I put 75 TS pressure regulator on my car. Had to do a remap on the fuel table. Car runs better at high rpms and the throttle response is much better as well.

By Matt on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 06:18 am:


So will the MegaSquirt work on my GTV 6 3.0 without the TPS?? using the MAP instead?

Thanks
Matthew

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 07:44 am:


Matt,

Yes it will. The TPS has 2 purposes. First is to add fuel when you accelerate. It detects a rapid differential in throttle position to know you've hit the gas. This differential is configurable in how often to check the position and how much fuel to add based on the amount of TPS change. A 2 minute code download looks for the same differential in MAP rather than throttle position to determine the same thing. A professional EFI developer and friend of mine seems to think the MAP is a better idea than TPS. The MegaSquirt builders think the TPS is faster to react on acceleration. The difference in reaction time isn't really perceptable to me having used both.

The second TPS function, albeit minor, is to trigger flood clear mode. If you flood your engine at startup, pushing the throttle to the floor and cranking cuts all fuel to the engine to burn the flood condition. The switch type TPS in the GTV6/Milano is fine for this. MS simply reads it as all open or all closed.

Hope this answers your question.

-Peter

By Steve R on Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 08:35 am:


After various delays at my end (holidays etc!) I fianlly have the majority of my megasquirt parts now & have built the stim & mega view so far... main board tonight!

question for Peter, you mention the throttle from a twin spark fits without mods but does that include the cable linkages too?? hope so! Otherwise I'd better read up on how to get / use Mapdot code instead as I expect driveability would suffer otherwise.

PS having seen all the components my wife thinks I'm mad ! :-)

By Matt on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 04:12 am:


Thanks for the prompt reply Peter.

I'll get back to you for other help once i've built myne up. I'll hopefully start the project at the end of june. And Peter I emaild you the other day just asking questions clearing up on other things i wasnt sure of.

Thanks
Matthew

By Steve R on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 09:31 am:


Another question for Peter :
You mentioned earlier in this thread "a small modification to the MegaSquirt fuel pump run circuit that starts the pump from the combi relay without it needing signal on 88a from the AFM".

I can't find this mod... could you post it here or mail it to me at steven_rosser@yahoo.com

My favourite alfa mechanic is looking through his spare throttle valves & tps for me so hopefully I won't need to implement a mapdot code change that I don't fully understood how to do yet !

thanks very much

By Peter Webb on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 03:02 pm:


Steve,

The 155/164 Dellorto throttle will bolt onto the GTV6/Milano plenum. I have since found out the geometry requires using the bell crank from the stock throttle. The pedal doesn't have enough travel. It bolts on to the Dellorto throttle. You'll have to tinker with it on the bench.

The MAPdot is just fine to run. Simply described, you power off your MS, attach it to the stim, put a jumper around R6 where it's labelled 'BOOT', power up the MS and run a hyperterminal session to the comm port, 9600 N-8-1. You'll get the 'Boot>' prompt. Type W to wipe the existing program, U to upgrade. From the file menu, select 'send text file'. Browse to the 2.98 MAPdot code. It will say 'completed' when it's done. Power down the MS, remove the jumper and power it back on. You're now running the MAPdot code. Make sure you save all settings to an MSQ file prior because flashing wipes all the fuel settings.

If you haven't already signed up for the Yahoo MS groups, join the list. The fuel pump circuit mod is under the L-Jet folder in the files section, with Peter Florance as the author. The MAPdot code download is under the files section under the experimental code folder.

All of these are at the new forum and support group at www.msefi.com.

HTH

-Peter

By Steve R on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:28 am:


thanks Peter

By Wes Moschetto on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 06:34 am:


I'm a little confused.
First off the bat I want to admit that I do not understand all the technical talk around the ECU. I know the basics, but unless this is plug and go I will definitely need someone else installing this puppy for me.
I have a US 1986 GTV6 with a 164S engine. The usual mods have been done, but I know my biggest performance restrictions lie in my intake. I want to get the most power out of this car with keeping it reliable.
I was considering going with the Autronic system to remove my AFM and then getting a larger Intake boot, throttle body, plenum and runners.
Zamani recommended the Autronic and I know he's been through a lot, so I was going with his reco. I've tried Zat's Pandoras Box, but I won't go into those headaches right now.
Now I being told about EMS's ECU the 8860 Sequntial or the Stinger 3 (sounds like an energy drink), Electromotive, and Mega Squirt.
I live in Tampa Florida and am definitely going to need some help on the install, but from what I'm being told I'm looking at $1500 US for Autronic unit and another $1500-$2000 US for the install. Any suggestions? This isn't a track car, just a Sunday driven Alfa that likes to race Porches on I-75 and not lose.
Thanks
Wes Moschetto
wmoschetto@msn.com

By Peter Webb on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:28 am:


Wes,

A few facts about the 164S engine before you rip it apart.

The throttle body is 70mm. A Mustang Cobra uses a 60mm throttle stock, and a 65mm upgrade. For a street car, the 70mm throttle is just fine.

The plenum is about 1.5 liters. There's something called the Helmholtz principle that determines volume and velocity of air intakes. If this is a hot street car, the factory plenum was well thought out for a compromise of power, comfort and drivability. Unless you want to make your head hurt with a lot of math, best to stay with what Alfa engineered.

The runners are 39mm. They could be a little larger, but you lose velocity, where you'd need to increase the plenum size. Back to that nasty math again.

IMO, what kills the V6 engine is the port size/design. This is where the 24V has the edge over the 12V. Cams help a great deal.

The fuel delivery and ignition control are heavily strangled by emissions and federal regulations. That is the first thing to change. Bosch is a basic make it run, pass emissions guidlines system. With proper control and tuning, there's another 50hp in the engine.

Your choices all have something in common. How much do you understand engine management. The Autronic, Electromotive, EMS or MegaSquirt are going to require the same amount of knowledge and tuning. The advantage MS has is you can build it for $140. The disadvantage is has is it's not a turn-key box that you can start tuning right away. There's soldering, electronics and programming involved. 90% of MS installs can use the base code and base circuit, which leaves only the soldering and testing part to you. And making cables. The MAPdot download is a code variant that's been written and tested already so all you have to do is flash the processor. If you were so skilled/inclined, you can modify the code to your needs. I consider it an advantage to have an open system where the embedded code and all the support applications (PC based) are open source for me to run as-is, or modify to suit my needs.

I would put a MegaSquirt installation at around $500 for a V6 Alfa. More or less depending on how willing/able you are to do things for yourself. You'll need to do some research on your own. This installation party is helping people with what I have learned from my experiments so they don't have to do it all over again.

To implement a MegaSquirt, you'll need the partial kit, B&G kit and case. There is a guy who provides the whole thing in 1 package and takes PayPal for $140. www.glensgarage.com.

You'll need an intake tube and filter which will run your about $100. You'll need to swap out the TPS, but fortunately for you it bolts right onto the 164 throttle with no mods. That runs about $50-70 at any parts store.

You'll need to make a cable that adapts the MS DB37 to the Bosch wiring harness. You'll need a Bosch ECU to take the connector from, and a DB37 that's included in the kit, and some 18g wire. Follow the wiring diagram which is dead simple. I have it posted on my site, http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/megasquirt

There are also pictures there of the cable I made and some of a MegaSquirt installed directly into a Bosch box.

I hope this clarifies things for you so you can make an educated choice on which system you want.

BTW, there is NO practical reason for sequential injection on an Alfa V6 engine. Especially for a street car. Batch works just fine. This question comes up once a week on the MegaSquirt list and noone has yet given a good reason why they NEED sequential. Besides, it's a real b*tch to implement and tune. You have to install cam angles sensors and crank angle sensors to know when the valve is open, otherwise you end up with no advantage on fuel timing beyond what a batch system gives.

-Peter

By Zamani on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 11:07 am:


It's good to have sequential injection if you live in Kalifornia (SMOG II dyno). Idle quality is also very good, even with CB cams, it is just as smooth as a 164S idle.

On Alfa V6, the cam and crank angle sensor isn't too difficult to have. Just use the the 164 pulley with the 60-2 teeth and crank sensor. For the cam angle sensor, you can modify the stock dissy and use the hall sensor in there.

Other than that, there's probably no need for sequential.

By Peter Webb on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:46 pm:


Yep, sequential does lower emissions a little. That's why the manufacturers use it on new cars. I wired the 2 banks on the V6 to fire as close to an open valve event as possible. I'm as near as dammit to getting a pulse. I configured for 2 squirts alternating.

However, when an engine is hot, there is no pooling on the valve anyway. If the injector is aimed correctly onto the back of the valve, it should atomize. You may get some drawback into the plenum with the intake pulses with high overlap cams. I do experience some of this at idle. The AL6216 cams behave pretty well at idle with the MS configuration. I couldn't get them to idle under 1100rpm on the L-Jet.

All of this is, of course, theory without the calibration tools the big-3 use to get their engine control systems to spec. They also control spark, even to the individual cylinder on a DIS system (Focus) or a JTS system (155). They also have to contend with unexpected load on the engine like power steering and A/C. Electronically controlled vapour canisters and cat air tube feedback (formerly EGR) can also cause transient AFR changes.

What we're doing here is so minor in comparison to what OEM sequentials do, it's not really as advantagious to emissions.

My $.02.

-Peter

By Matt on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 06:29 am:


Peter,

On the yahoo groups, there are 2 MAPDot files.
V2.98_MAPDotAE.asm
V2.98_MAPDotAE.s19

Which is the correct one that I should upload to the MS for my GTV6?
I'm also taking it that I need to go buy a narrow band oxygen sensor, as my GTV is South African and does not contain one.
Have you tested the MS using just the MAP yet? or do always replace the TPS?
So i can i leave the TPS unconnected, or must i connect it aswell?

Could I use the based code, example, from your site that you used with your 3L? Myne is a 3L engine, with 2,5L heads and injection, i think it has the smaller valves from the 2,5. It is a conversion that was made up long ago from carb to inj.

Ordered my MS the other day, should be on its way soon.

Thanks
Matt

By Peter Webb on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 10:13 am:


Matt,

The .s19 file is the one you want to download to the MS. The .asm file is assembly language source code so us programmers can see what it's doing inside the code. You could use it as a basis to learn HC08 assembler.

Download the MAPdot code to the MS and set the accel enrichments to:

2 v/s .5
4 v/s 1.0
8 v/s 2.0
15 v/s 3.0

You can take my .msq file from the site for the 3.0. It will probably run pretty good on that, but you'll have to tune. It's not manditory to have GEGO but it does help with tuning. You can do most of it seat of the pants. This is part where understanding engine tuning comes in. If it rev sluggishly, you're too rich (and you can smell it), lean and you'll get backfires in the plenum and bucking. Diddle with the settings on the road (preferably with a passenger) and tune by feel. You'll get it pretty close.

Leave the TPS connected for flood-clear mode.

-Peter

By Wes Moschetto on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 06:45 am:


Peter,
Thanks for your advice.
My 164S engine is using the stock 2.5L Plenum from my GTV6. The mechanic told me he used it so the everything would fit (when he shifted the engine sideways). I am assuming he used my old 2.5L runners as well. This is why I wanted to get them bored out. I can only guess which Throttle body I am using.
The engine bay looks identical to what it looked like before the engine swap, so I think he changed the "enigne block", but used my 2.5L intake and exhaust headers. He had told me the 3.0L runners and plenum wouldn't fit because of the way the engine sits, same thing with the headers.
Now does it sound like I could use the larger intake components? If the runner and plenum are a good/exact size for a 2.5L, wouldn't it make sense that I NEED a larger intake for the 3.0L?
Thanks again. I am definitely leaning toward the Megasquirt. I will definitely need help with it, but I am learning a lot from reading this and the yahoo message boards. Thanks everybody. One last "stupid question"...What is the TPS? I am assuming it has something to do with the throttle body, but am not sure (I told you I needed a little help with this).
Thanks
Wes Moschetto
wmoschetto@msn.com

By Mark Denovich on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 09:41 am:


TPS = Throttle Position Sensor.

Read the Megasquirt manual, it will help familiarize you with the terms and concepts you will need to know. Even if you don't go megasquirt 90% of the information is directly transferable to whatever EFI you choose. Plus it will make Peter happy if you've done your homework.

By Steve R on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 09:19 am:


Nearly finished my MS build at last.. and thanks to Peter for various helpful comments. Note to all, actually building his thing from bags of parts isn't as hard as it initially looks.

However, here's couple of (possibly stupid) questions, so please humour me !

1/ RE the mapdot re-boot: To enter boot mode I presume I have to link the two holes in tiny box labelled "boot" rather than bridge any resistors? Just asking as I don't want to damage my board at the last step.

2/ Loading test VE set ups from file - I want to load Peter's 3.0 matdot ve table as it should be reasonably close for my car. I presume I need to do this via the input VE option in "Megatune". However the program expects a .vex file & the file on the web site is .msq so I'm a bit stuck on how to do this. I've tried cut and pasting the file into wordpad and saving as .vex, but that won't load either (megatune say can't read file).

I think I'm close, any pointers gratefully accepted.

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 11:12 am:


Steve,

I answered you on the msefi forum.

If anyone else wants the answer to the question, I can post here too.

BTW, some of you sent me emails off-list regarding the MS conversion/convention install. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just woefully behind in everything. My sob story is trying to finish 2 projects from hell at work, moving to a new place this weekend and trying to get the Milano ready for the Grattan track event on Monday.

I'll get to you soon, I promise.

-Peter

By Steve R on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 12:04 pm:


Cheers once again Peter. (I posted both forums at the same time figuring the general Alfa community on here might be interested) I'll feedback soon.

By Matt on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 05:46 pm:


Steve or Peter.. could you pls post a copy of the answer to Steve's question here also.

Thanks
Matthew

By Mats on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 12:10 am:


Yeah, that MS forum at http://www.msefi.com is just too "large", too many topics and I cant find anything... :/

/Mats

By enzo on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:21 am:


look here
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=56 ... ight=#5686

By bmacf on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 12:51 pm:


Hello Peter, Zamani, et al., this topic is interesting, so please keep contributing.

On a slightly separate note, can anybody recommend a good FI book. I want to understand in more detail the prinicples behind plenum size, batch vs. sequential injection, single throttle vs. multiple throttle, etc. Anybody with a good recommendation?

Thanks,
Bill in MD

By Matt on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 04:07 pm:


Again just checking... Do i need a O2 sensor for the megasquirt to run correctly, as my bosch system doesnt have one? And i have read on the megasquirt site that it does require one.

Thanks

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 06:26 pm:


You can run an MS without a O2 sensor. It's difficult to tune. You turn off GEGO (correction) and you have no idea whether you're rich or lean on the data aquisition.

Not required but extremely helpful.
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By bmacf on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 09:33 am:


Matt, I bought a Mustang 5.0 O2 sensor for my L-jet Milano and it works just fine. It only costs $35. I guess any O2 sensor would work though since you are going with MegaSquirt.

Bill

By Donald Papa (Dp) on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 04:48 pm:


I bought a $35 O2 from Mr. Zamani a few years ago - still goin' strong.

Got anymore Zamani? I can't meet you this time :-(

By Matt on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 03:48 am:


Steve R
Hows your MS comin on?

By Steve R on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 04:26 am:


Teething problems sums it up...

Finished it over the weekend and all tests good when running on the stim & PC, all sensors inc map reading fine. I then build it into the bare "bones" of an old ljet, put that in the car last night and ....nothing !

for info I built it with the flyback board from day one, plus the mapdot code and fuel pump mod between pins 19 & 37. Also I soldered leads to the MS board and spade connected them to the ljet... good thinking this as:-

My +12v supply was wrong (and I think different to the diagram on Peter's site) , swapped this and all runs fine on the lap top with ingnition key at "run", ECU counter running, IAT, CTS, TPS, MAP all reading correctly.

Try and start and no luck, fuel pump doesn't run & ecu timer stops soon as the starter turns. It was late and I was tired, so called it a day rather than compound what ever the mistake was. I'm currently looking at ljet connector wiring diagrams on the internet, but no two are EXACTLY the same! damn. Been searching this site for a while as I recal seeing a definitive GTV6 one...but haven't found it yet. Found some similar on BMW sites though.

So far I've discovered I haven't got sufficient grounds on the MS board (Doh!), easily fixed and I am suspicious of my MS fuel pump mod. tonight I'll fix the grounds and hot wire the pump to see if car starts, then go back to the ms pump circuitry mod (once I've re-read how transistor pins go as I'm suspicious I have the extra one aligned wrong!)

If anyone has a defintive diagram for the GTV6 ljet connector please post !

Soooo close now..

By Steve R on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 04:29 am:


The good news is it only takes 15 seconds to swap the unmolested bosch ecu back in again to test all is OK.

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 01:48 pm:


Steve,

Email me directly with the problems. I'll see if I can help. I have some pinouts for grounds you might need.

As I was recently told by an internet 'expert' that I don't have a clue, I'll not offer my clueless advice unless asked directly.

-Peter

By Zamani on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 02:05 pm:


Peter,

Please post answers here. Who cares about the experts. I want to start an MS project for another car and it would help if the discussions are all done on this thread.

By Steve R on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 04:43 pm:


Success, it started first revolution, runs and everything works as it should. Hurrah !

I had made three seperate silly wiring mistakes, once fixed it started on the first revolution tonight.

1/ I thought I'd followed Peter's pin out diagram to the letter...but I'd missed grounding pins 28 & 34, therefore the combi relay didn't energise correctly. I blame being tired!.

2/ Because I'd just followed the above diagram, I didn't refer back to the MS info to check for any extra connections at that stage, therefore missing that I needed to ground MS pins 7-11 inclusive ! Doh!

3/ As suspected I'd configured the fuel pump mod circuit incorrectly, having read up the difference between NPN & PNP transistors I'd wired emiter & collector back to front. Basically the extra transistor has to stand on it's head to align correctly - the documentation didn't mention this small fact !

The MS would actually have worked perfectly very first try as the only problems were my own wiring errors.

It runs very rich at the moment, but I'll try tuning that out tomorrow evening - thats the great thing, I can tune what I like! I'd quite happily do it right now except the neighbours may not appreciate a barely silenced 3.0 with 294 degree cams being tuned at half past midnight. ;-) hehehehe

Peter, I'm glad to say your diagram is absolutely accurate, many many thanks for your help on line.

I'm very pleased with myself as you can guess and it's completely reversible in about 15 seconds flat should I ever need to as I've left the (735i) AFM in place temporarily.

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:27 pm:


Great news Steve. It was that easy for me too. And if it failed, I kept the ECU in the trunk (boot) for a quick swap back. When I was comfortable with it's reliablity, I took the AFM out and gained a lot of HP.

If you took my MAPdotAE msq file from the site, it's set up for no AFM so that would explain why it's rich. Save that off for when you ditch it. Try downloading the other .msq file there from when I did have the AFM. Then change the accel enrichments.

Congrats. Email me privately about getting your tuning together. I'll see what my clueless ass can do to help you.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:45 pm:


MS Track Report:

My first outing with the MS and new intake at the track yesterday. The MS has been in daily use for the last 6 months (off and on as weather permitted). I'm very comfortable with its reliablity.

I set off for Grattan Raceway (aka The Rollercoaster) at 3am Monday morning. The car went like stink the whole 230 mile journey at triple digit speeds a lot of the way. There's nothing like open rural Michigan interstates at 4am. Not a lick of trouble, running like a top passing anything that got in my way.

Arrived in Grattan Michigan at 7am (1 hour time diff so that tells you how fast I was going) to a downpour. Ok, I've never driven this track before, it's a ribbon style track with camber and elevation in all the turns, and there are giant puddles all over, including the apexes.

Go out for my first session. Never had this much grunt on a track before and it showed. I tried following a GTV around but alas, his 115hp didn't do anything nasty. A touch of the throttle on the Milano and sideways I went. Got into the hairpin a little hot, big throttle and around I went. Even the little kink onto the straight caused the rear end to kick out on me.

After a frustrating first session, the rain finally stopped. They ran all 4 classes ahead of me and 3 touring sessions over lunch so the track was nice a dry. The afternoon sun helped considerably.

On the next run, it was lightening fast. I was still struggling to keep it in shape part because I've done so many changes to the car and part because I've never driven this track before, and its a M-F. Ok, coming along the straight, I see a 350Z getting over to let me by. WHAT!!! that shouldn't be. Ok, I soldier on. On the next time around I dispose of a couple of GTV6s and get ready to pass a GTV on the straight. Roar of the engine, into fourth, just passed him, and *SHIT*, car is stuck in gear!!! DAMMIT. Can't get it out of fourth. Let the GTV and the 2 GTV6s back past me and limp into pit lane. Get it into 3rd finally on the pit in with a massive vibration. Bang on a few things in the paddock, drive it around, feels normal now.

I head out for another session. Behind me is a 1998 E46 M3. He's with me most of the track as I'm on street tires and struggling for the line. I get to the straight, clip the apex of the last corner and nail the gas. I look in my mirror expecting the M3 to be with me.

Big smile!! He's half way back down the front straight. I ran away from this car like he was standing still. Holy Crap! Mission accomplished. I wanted this car to be an M-killer and it is.

On the next session I again passed the 350Z on the straight. WOOOHOOOO! I accomplished the mission I set out with last year with the MS and the intake. I wanted to make modern power with a modern(ized) system on a great 15 year old car. I wanted to show the Germans and Japanese that the Italian technology of 15 years ago, is still as good as theirs is today once I took all the Bosch crap off.

I'm very pleased and can't wait for a track day on a track I know so I can really put it to the test.

Remember, Bosch is just German for Lucas!

-Peter

By joey on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 12:53 am:


peter, sounds like a killer day at the track, congrats !

as for your advice on megasquirt.. i say screw the "expert" internet schmuck.

your advice and *actual* help here with ALFA owners by all accounts is much appreciated, and is always welcome. i'm be looking to employ your knowledge in the future with any luck, so dont be a stranger - feel free to post anything related to megasquirt or even throw in your 2 cents in the other topics, you are most welcome.

i dont know you, but already you have helped others here, and speaking for myself, i'm very interested in what you have to say. I can tell you now, however it was that told you that your contribution is not worthwhile, hasn't done shit for us here.

cheers,

joe

By joey on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 12:59 am:


oops, that was meant to be *whoever* not however..

By Steve R on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 03:56 am:


"clueless ass" ! funny... I'm appreciative of the positive, accurate and helpful advice, would have been much more difficult without it. cheers Peter. Please feel free to offer me "clueless" advice whenever you like ;-)

I'll try the other file & peg my AFM wide open this evening and see if that's better. If OK I have a 75 mile trip tomorrow am & then another 150 miles in the evening, should get a few datalogs and fine tuning out of those.

I imagine I'll feedback more in a few days.

Sounds like your car goes very well indeed!

By bmacf on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 11:59 am:


Peter, sounds like an awesome experience. Please keep up your GTV6.org posts regarding both building/installing MS and your track experiences.

To Steve R., you too, please keep up the posts on the success and foibles (hopefully few).

Bill in MD
'88 Milano 3.0, soon a Megasquirter
'77 Fiat Spider, might be a MS'er too if I can figure out how to bolt a set of Suzuki GSXR throttle bodies to a DCOE manifold
'01 Audi S4 Avant - no need for MS

By Matt on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 09:33 am:


Steve,

Did you start off with Peters msq file, and then tune from there? Could you save your msq file and send to to me via email, thanks. I have also ordered the flyback board.

Peter,
I am also making one up for a friend who has a GTV6 2,5. Do you by any chance have a basic msq file for that engine? or should i just use the 3L one and change from there?

I am awaiting the arrival of my 2 kits.

Thanks
Matt

Keating202@hotmail.com

By Peter Webb on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:28 am:


Matt,

Use the base 3.0 MSQ file from my page.

http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/megasquirt/verde.msq

That was with the AFM in place and no MAPdotAE. I think I set the AE to 0 in there. Change them to what I listed above. You'll want to set the .2v/s bin low so any MAP fluctuation at idle or cruise doesn't trigger an accel event.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 03:46 pm:


All,

I've posted a modified version of that .msq file to the site in place of the one that was there. The file has the following changes that were specific to my car:

1) Injector opening time of 1.2ms. This was because I was running 65psi rail pressure. At stock rail pressure, the opening time is now the default of 1.0. This is why Steve experienced rich running. It will add 1.2ms to the PW instead of 1.0ms making the injector open longer than it should. This will be most pronounced at idle. Idle PW should be around 2.3-2.5ms.

2) Accel enrichments were turned off. I've changed them to the correct values for MAPdotAE

3) GEGO correction was off. I've set it to 2% step rate, 20% max, 32 ignition events per sample

4) Priming pulse and cranking pulse were too low. Make sure you unplug your cold-start injector when using this settting.

5) Decel fuel cut is at 110% to prevent bucking on decel.

Let me know if you have any problems with it. It's available for download now.

-Peter

By bmacf on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 03:09 pm:


Peter, are you still using the stock TPS? I tracked down a TPSensor (not switch) like the one used on the Alfa 155. I think you said I need to use the 164 throttle body with this sensor or do I need to track down a Alfa 155 throttle body? Thanks for posting your msq files. I'm not to that point yet, but it is helpful to have access to them.

Thanks,
Bill MacF

By Peter Webb on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 07:57 pm:


Bill,

A throttle from a 164 will work on the Milano plenum. It works with TPS 0 280 122 001. It's commonly used on the 164QV, 155, Volvo 850, BMW E46 etc.

You'll need the bellcrank from the Milano throttle to keep the geometry correct (and the stock cable works). It bolts right on to the Milano plenum.

I'd suggest just using the MAPdotAE code bypassing the need for a TPS. I got great results using it on the Verde before I switched to the triple throttle setup.

-Peter

By Matt on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 04:40 pm:


Peter,
Could you email me the megamanual, or do u know where i could download the entire thing in 1 file. I have been readin the ones on the megasquirt main site, but would like to keep a copy on my hdd, so i dont have to keep comin back to that site to read the next piece.

Thanks
Matt

By Peter Webb on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 07:01 pm:


http://www.msefi.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=5

Download it from there. If you don't want it to load as a plugin in the browser, right click the download button and select 'save target as'
User avatar
P.Webb
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Post by P.Webb »

By Steve R on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 02:20 am:


Update for all, apologies in advance for the long post, thought I might as well cover all areas of my experience with Megasquirt in one go. For those who want to sell another system - look away now... ;-)

My GTV6 is now running consistantly on Megasquirt. I had a few issues, partly caused by silly mistakes I made, partly with the stock injectors being undersized for a warmed over 3.0 and causing component failures.

For those who are interested my set up is as follows:-
Completely stock Alfa loom, sensors, injectors etc.
The MS is built into the empty "skeleton" of a spare L-jet ECU that I gutted.
MS board outputs are wired to the correct pins on the inside of the ljet connector following a pin out diagram from Peter's web site.
Ljet ECU case has a few extra holes for the serial port connector needed to connect to a laptop for tuning, a vacuum tube from the plenum & a wire from my O2 sensor (my car didn't have O2 sensor as stock)

This way the MS is a straightforward swap for the stock ECU, meaning I can swap straight back if there are any problems.

Other modifications away from the basic MS are :

1/ Running MAPdot code version on the MS processor meaning my accel enrichments are based on rate of change of MAP reading rather than TPS. Partly this should be more accurate in theory, partly so I could keep the stock Alfa TPS.

2/ I'm using the add on "flyback" board (daughterboard) that is also bolted inside the stock ECU case. Because the stock injectors are undersized they run a very high duty cycle and can (did!) overload some MS compenents. The add on board has heavier duty and duplicated components to handle the reverse EMF pulse (flyback) when the injectors close.

3/ Modified output on the fuel pump activation circuit to supply a "ground" to the stock combo relay. Again this is documented on the MS forums and I just followed the diagram someone had posted. I screwed it up the first time, but it was OK once I realised I'd installed a transisitor back to front during this mod !

The car is an 83 euro GTV6 with a 12v 3.0 from a 75 which is internally stock except for a pair of CB104/294s cams (same as Zamani's). I have opened up the cold air inlet to the airbox, K&N, big (735i) AFM, CSC tubular exhaust manifolds, straight through 2x2" centre, Ansa rear box. The above mods allow it to flow much better !

I'm at early stages of tuning my MS, but with a starting point from Peter's running file I now have it running smoother and cleaner on MS than ljet. So far I've been concentrating on the tickover to 4000 range and getting smoothly into acceleration. It's noticeably torquier and smoother. So much so that even my wife noticed the car sounded different and better ! praise indeed!

Next step are to either get bigger injectors or more fuel pressure as I max out the duty cycle above 5000rpm. Then the AFM goes in the bin to be replaced by a custom airbox lid with a 4" pipe to the throttle.

The MS is really very very good. Don't be fooled into thinking it's cheap & therefore poor quality. Building it is pretty straightforward, the manual is very detailed and comprehensive. The voluntary support provided by other users on the forum is excellent, all my queries and issues were resolved and explained promptly, efficiently and accurately - far better actually than everyday retail items you might buy.

If you fancy the satifaction of saying "I did this" then do give it a try.

& last of all thumbs up to Peter !

By Anonymous on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 08:01 pm:


ATTN: STEVE R.

Hey Steve, I'd like to email you off the board regarding your Megasquirt experiences. Can you please send your email address to: W1LJ_extraclass(remove this for spam)@yahoo"dot"com

For my actual email address, please remove both parenthesis and statement inside them, and substitute a period for the "dot." Those spam robots are pretty fierce in combing the web for addresses...

Regards,
MilanoMan

By Wes Moschetto on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 08:43 pm:


Steve,
I thought you can throw your AFM away when using MegaSquirt? Why are you still using the AFM?
Thanks
Wes

By Steve R on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 09:25 pm:


Hi Wes,

Well spotted ! I've only left the AFM there to start with so I can easily swap back to l-jet ECU (currently a 2 min job) if the MS has problems. Once the MS has proven itself for a couple of months then I'll ditch AFM (ex BMW 735i & 35% larger cross sectional area than stock Alfa) & the intake route will become a 4" pipe.....

By Simon Holywell on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 05:46 pm:


Steve when you built Peter Florance's Fuel Pump drive circuit from the MS forums. What transistor did you use? I cannot seem to source a ZTX751 in Australia.

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=2378

Thanks,
Simon

By Steve R on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 12:15 pm:


Simon , just use any PNP 2amp, 60v transistor.

I also had trouble finding the right part swiftly and from memory I think I landed up using a 1 amp 60v PNP for a while and it was absolutely fine. I figured it only has to close a relay so it's not a high current draw.

By Simon Holywell on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 08:47 am:


Thanks for the reply and tip. I couldn't find a close a equivalent from a local electronic component shop so I ended up ordering from Farnell online. An expensive little exercise given that I had to spend $10 to pay by credit card and then $10 for postage. But that screw driver I bought to bump the price up to $10 might come in handy!

Once the transistor arrives tomorrow (I hope) I should be able to modify the board and begin the first trial install of the MegaSquirt system.

By the way I think I have found a TPS that will fit the 75 3.0 engine, but obviously I have yet to try it out. I got it out of a 1988 Renault 21 Injection sedan. For other people who are in Melbourne; there was only one at the wreckers in Mulgrave/Springvale and yes I now have it. :-)

Thanks,
Simon

By Simon Holywell on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 01:11 am:


Steve I fried the output circuit like you and I am waiting for parts to arrive. Would it be possible to get your MAPdotAE tuning file (.msq)? Peter's is very rich and caused me some problems (in the 20 secs before the output circuit was fried). If you have a file from before you removed the AFM then that would be fantastic.

My email address is: holywell@gmx.net

Thanks,
Simon

By Steve R on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 02:06 am:


Will mail you from home tonight. IT's not going to be perfect, but might be closer. Mines a bit leaner in the middle and zero fuel on the overun.

By Simon Holywell on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 08:53 am:


As far as the fuel pump modification goes. What should I be getting out of MegaSquirt pin37? Because at the moment I am getting about 5v on the stimulator.

By Steve R on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 08:59 am:


I'm sure this mod supplies a "ground" when activated as that's what the stock GTV6 relay set needs to activate. The stock MS circuitry supplies a positive voltage.

What Alfa is this going into?

By Simon Holywell on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 02:43 pm:


Its going into an Alfa75 3.0. If you need to supply ground to the fuel pump then I cannot see why you need to modify the circuit as the original circuit also supplied ground to the fuel pump.

By Simon Holywell on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 12:31 am:


My car runs now on the MS. I got the replacement components from RS today and made sure absolutely everything was set correctly before continuing. Now all I have to do is to get the damn thing to idle.

Look forward to seeing your tuning file Steve.

Thanks,
Simon

By Steve R on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 01:19 pm:


Simon, a couple of files should be sat in your inbox as I type. To be honest I don't know for sure what the fuel pump mod does, other than that it works!

By Simon Holywell on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 02:35 am:


Thanks Steve. I have got it working properly now. I was having issues with MAP pulses and RPM spikes but the car now idles nice and smoothly. I think I am going to pester a mate for his wide band sensor now.

The fuel pump mod provides +12v when hooked into the car.

I am going to take the car for a short and very gentle test drive on the MS now.

Thanks,
Simon

By Matt on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 05:48 pm:


Steve,
could you also please send me your msq file.

Thanks,
Matthew
ktnmat001@mail.uct.ac.za

By drewseph on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 11:42 pm:


does the ms system raise the rev limiter?

By Steve R on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:54 am:


Matt, will do.

drewseph, the rpm limiter in my GTV6 is in the rotor arm, not the ECU, I swapped the 6300rpm factory unit for a replacement Bosch 7000 unit many years ago.
If your limiter is in the Fuel ECU (75's perhaps?), then yes MS removes it.

The system can be made to provide both fuel and spark control, but the spark side of MS needs quite a lot more work by the owner/installer, certainly more than I want to do right now !

By drewseph on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 07:37 am:


ahh


cos 5800 for a 3litre is bloody pathetic...and when mines back on the road...its gunna be in for engine work....q cams, either megasquirt or ems, and intake and exahaust mods...


anyhew...im outta beer...which means is bed o'clock...

By Steve R on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:43 am:


I guess this is a message for Micheal Harris really, how can I contact you !

I'm writing a document giving a detailed description of how to build Megasquirt in a GTV6. Listing exactly what needs to be done in the way of modifications away from the standard megasquirt build to make it all work properly.

Who do I mail this too? for a chat offline email me at stevenunderscorerosser@yahoo.com take out the word "underscore" and replace with the symbol _

regards
Steve

By Steve R on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 09:45 am:


Don't worry I just found Micheals email address, I'll mail over the finished article just as soon I figure out how to get the photo's out of my phone and into the document ;-) !

By Steve R on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:19 pm:


Just emailed a reasonably detailed document on how to build Megasquirt specifically for a GTV6 plus my current engine fuel map & settings to Michael, for possible addition to the site docs.

By joey on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 09:22 pm:


sweet.. i'll be needing that !

thanks steve...

if its not too much trouble, can you forward me a copy ? wankski at hotmail.com

cheers

joe

By Steve R on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 03:57 am:


will do, but beware it's 3 meg doc. there's bound to be some typo's as I'm a lazy proof reader ! ;-)

By Karl Straver on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:49 am:


I would be keen on a read, unless some one is going to host this document somewhere?

Thanks

straver@slingshot.co.nz

By Canguro on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 06:16 am:


Yes, PLease put it up asap.

I'm just about to do this for my 3.0 in my GTV.

Steve R
If possible please e-mail me :

thomas.trw@telia.se

Thanks

By Steve R on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 07:05 am:


Whoa ! Didn't realise this would prove so popular ! No problem sending it to various people, but it tends to bust their inbox as it's a 3 meg file (including embedded photos etc). For instance Joe & Matt, I just sent your copies but recieved a failure message from your mail host saying you are "full".

I've sent a revised version to Michael Harris today containing a number of amendments, hopefully it'll get posted on the tech section for anyone to browse.

Karl & Thomas, I'll send you a copy, but in view of the above comments you might not get it !

Also I won't be online for the next week or so, therefore apologies that I'll appear unresponsive to any comments for the time being.
regards

By joey on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 07:17 am:


ah, sorry about that steve..

i had no idea it would be that big..

if you still have time, could you send it to :

joeyamin at swiftdsl.com.au

if mike doesnt respond and put it up here, then i'll be happy to host it.

thanks again !

By Matt on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:40 pm:


Steve..
I did recieve a copy of the document, I found a couple things to change and add. I'll email you the details tomorrow, Sun 29th.

Otherwise well done on a great idea and well put together.

My megasquirt arrived, so this weekend was spent soldering. I will put it into the car next week and let everyone here know how it goes.

I have also just sent a pair of heads off to get redone, having it flowed and polished, changing to bigger valves, got hot cams and hopefully better fuel injectors. I'll only put those on the car in December. And that is when I'm going to take full advantage of the MegaSquirt.

By Canguro on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 03:22 pm:


Steve,

Well I haven't recived anything so guess there is some limit issue, should not be my account although (7Mb).

Anyway can't wait to read through this I hope Michael Harris get it up in some section asap.

I'm like a kid close to X-mas...

Cheers

By paulG on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 03:40 pm:


There is another way of course.Some what primative and crude. Its called a "fax".The drawback of course is the cost to fax it to people from Kinko's.I bet however that the people you fax it to would not object to covering your cost to fax it to them (Assuming they have a fax)or to their nearest Kinko's copy center where they live.This way there would not be a long wait for Michael to put it on this sight.Of course if Michael puts it on soon you should completely disregard this primative,backward idea.

By Zamani on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 09:39 pm:


Paul,

When are you gonna do the MS thingy?

By wes moschetto on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 05:38 pm:


Steve,
Would you mind sending me the Megasquirt info too? I am still deciding between MS and Autronic's EMS, but am going to go with one or the other by this Friday. I'd like to take a look before making up my mind. I have a 3.0L GTV6 so would your maps and info be the same for me orwould they need to be changed for a 3.0L? Zamani, you have the Autronic unit, right? What's your take. The MS saves alot of money, but I'd rather spend the extra dinero and have the best possible job done.
My email is wmoschetto@msn.com
thanks everyone.
Wes

By joey on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 02:23 am:


Steve,

i recieved the file !

awesome... simply great work.. this info will be invaluable when it comes to my MS build.. thanks so much for taking the time to help others out !

many thanks..

wes & thomas(canguro).. i've just forwarded steve's guide to you both.

cheers

joe

By Canguro on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:08 am:


Joe and Steve,

Stupied me but my e-mail is: thomas.trw@telia.com

lame excuse but it's a new adres for me.
I thought the old one still worked ?!
If someone could re-sent to correct address I would be most greatful.

I'm an idiot not cheking before.. sorry for extra work.

Joe, I e-mailed you as well, so if possible you could just return my e-mail with the attched info.

Thanks
Thomas

By Wes Moschetto on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 08:02 am:


Thanks Joe,
I received the file ok. I can't wait to get the AFM off my car. Has anyone dyno'd the car before and after the MS install? What about before and after a Engine Management System install? Bang for buck I'm sure MS is better, but I'd love to see a side by side comparison, just for curiosity.
Thanks again Joe, this forum has been great for help with stuff like this. It'll make installation and mapping so much easier.
Wes

By joey on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:07 pm:


Thomas,

no problem at all.. resent.

enzo, i've also forwarded a copy to you if you're reading this thread.. tho u'ld find out shortly either way..

cheers

joe

ps: good job steve, your guide is spreading like wildfire...looks like all interested parties will already have a copy before poor mike harris has a chance to post it..

pps: steve, any chance of high res photos.. the diode diag. in particular..??

By joey on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:11 pm:


lol.. sorry mate.. just realised that the MS is completed and sealed up in your car doing its job quite nicely by the sounds of it.. nevermind.

(in my defense its 5:00am i ain't thinking straight)

By Canguro on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 02:41 pm:


Joe, got it ! thanks a lot.

Steve, must say nice job done - really good guide even I will be able to understand and make this...or at least I think so..

By paulG on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:06 pm:


Hi Zamani-I will probably do the "MS Thingy" next year when I pay off my mods for my WRX.I did Cobb Tuning stage 2

By Peter Webb on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:29 pm:


I'm really glad to see so many people taking on the project. I'm sure you'll agree it's worthwhile in the end, and not as intimidating as it first looks. It's great to be able to invest your own sweat equity into the project instead of $1000s into a commercial system. Hopefully you all now see what I was getting at in my initial comments on getting it running.

And I'm very glad to see you all helping each other out in the spirit of what the MS is. The larger base we build here, the easier it will be to support. I've been hanging back here watching what's going on and I think it's really terrific. Now we have a published guide gratefully contributed by Steve Rosser. Perhaps I can write a tuning suppliment to it and put them together. IMO, tuning is the hard part. However we are all lucky to be share each others files and experiences. With a high-level guide each file can be tweaked to the individual car. Even in the MS world, no 2 MSQ files are the same even for the same engine.

Hats off to all who took the plunge.

-Peter

By Alfisto Steve on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:50 pm:


Peter talked to you on the roof top parking about your conversion in the Milano.

Have injector question for you. You said you used Chevy injectors right? Size, flow rate and part number; vendor please?

Also trying to fix my friends 164 with two bad injectors 0 280 150 702 rated at 189cc/min. Difatta sent me 2 new ones 0 280 150 714 rated at 192 cc/min 20.35 lbs/hr.

According to old Bosch cross-reference microfiche I have 714's are/were used on BMW 318 through 735.

BMW lists same BMW part number 13 64 1 706 176 for both Bosch 702 and 714 injectors so do you think I can safely install 2 714's in his 164l and keep using 4 of the 702's?

By bmacf on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:51 pm:


Hey everyone, I'm halfway through my MS build. I've been spending 15 minutes every night after work on the project, so progress has been slow.

Anybody else out there build a pigtail from the MS box to the LJET wiring harness? What gauge wire did you use? 18 gauge?

And I'm a little late to the party regarding the installation file Steve put together. Steve, would you mind emailing it to me? I'd be happy to share info on the MS install in my 3.0 Milano.
bmacfarl$fastmail.fm (put an @ where the $ is)

Thanks, looking forward to hearing everybody's progress.

Bill in MD

By Peter Webb on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:19 pm:


Bill,

see: http://home.comcast.net/~webb.p/megasquirt for a pinout and pictures of the pigtail. I used 18g wire though you should probably use something a little heavier for the injector outputs. Also beware of interferrance with the tach signal wire and TPS. Use shielded wire on these and keep them apart or the tach might get outside spikes and/or cause false TPS accel triggers.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:32 pm:


Steve,

Since they flow higher, there's no danger in installing these in terms of going lean and melting stuff. It's enough of a difference that I wouldn't mix and match them. I'd speculate BMW meant installing all 6 of the same type that are close enough to use and still run the correct AFR.

I don't remember the Bosch part # on the SBC injectors but they are 24lb @ 45psi. I'm running 65psi rail pressure that runs them at about 28lbs. I think I posted the inverse square formula somewhere in this thread. If not, email me directly. I have a Bosch xref PDF file with part #s and flow rates if you don't have it already. I can send you that too. Address is on my name in the post header.

IMO, 24lb would be much too high for a 164 with stock ECU.

The good news is the MS-II will be released soon that has an upgrade to the HC08 processor to 16bit and several more programmable inputs/outputs and ignition control. The new microcode is in 'C' (previously assembler) which makes it more maintainable by the average programmer. I happen to be a 'C' programmer for a living, and I cringe at assembly code . Also compilable by GCC so no obscure toolkits to install to get the code compiled/assembled.

What does this mean to us? A Motronic conversion is now made much much easier where the MS-II will closer emulate it. The stock ignition module and triggers can be used. They could be used on the MSnS too but there were many more mods to do. This is more turn-key.

Check out www.msefi.com for more info. Look at the MS-II threads and info pages.

-Peter

By Steve R on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 03:52 am:


Hi all,
Just back from holiday and glad to see lots more discussion sparked on this subject.

Big thanks once again to Peter Webb for showing it's possible and to him and a number of contributors on www.msefi.com who steered me through various problems.

All the document shows is my own build, but listing all the alterations as you go along to avoid the main problems.

By Steve R on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:33 am:


Go to http://www.msefi.com/viewforum.php?f=50

Which is the MS Alfa Romeo "success story" area, you'll see my name plus Peter & a few others.

I saved the build doc as a .pdf and saved it against my entry. Help yourself, hope you'll forgive a few typo's ;-)

One follow up note of caution, the stock injectors are too small for a high power application so you will need to do something about this. Bigger new injectors is best, more fuel pressure is cheaper but a significant compromise. If you are a regular reader of Greg Gordon's pages (and I hope you all are!) go there now and have a good read. On page 5 is a warning to us about the limited capabilities of the stock fuel set up, read it and take heed.

regards

By bmacf on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 04:44 pm:


Peter, thanks for the tip on the MS/Ljet pigtail. I'll order some shielded wire when I order some of the components missing from my Digikey order (grrrrr).

Steve, I see the MS Alfa success story area, but where is the .pdf file - couldn't see it.

I have two more questions, maybe its addressed by Steve's document. (1) What bias resistors (R4 and R7) did other Alfisti use for the coolant and air temp sensors? (2) And then there's opsoisolator U4 - do I jumper XG1 to XG2 for our Ljet systems?

I'm starting to get excited!

Bill

By Peter Webb on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 08:39 pm:


Bill,

I used the stock bias resistors that read the Bosch sensors perfectly. The Bosch bias (2.2k I think) read too low. You can always use EasyTherm to correct. Make sure you specify the MAPdotAE 2.98 code as the base for ET.

Yes, unless you're using the Dave cap, which is not needed for most systems, you jumper XG1 to XG2. It's not critical for the Stim but is for the car. I put the Wing diode in place and increased R12 to clean up the tach signal.

-Peter

By Peter Webb on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 12:18 pm:


I've created some new discussion topics under the MegaSquirt area broken down my subject matter.

This thread is getting VERY long and covers a vast amount of issues. I thought it easier to manage and navigate if we broke it down to 4 general areas:

Assembly - Buying the kit, soldering it together, testing and troubleshooting on the Stim

Installation - The process of getting it wired up into the car and idling.

Tuning - Getting it to run well, perform and meet emissions standards. And anything else relating to general running issues.

Sensors and Injectors - Interfacing with the Bosch sensors and Injectors in the car, sizing replacements, using the GM sensors as alternates etc.

If anyone can think of another breakout topic, please feel free to suggest it or add it. I'll also add a topic for the Seattle AROC-USA Convention session. I know we just finished the last one, but it's never too early to start planning the next.

-Peter

By bmacf on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:40 am:


Hey Steve R., I haven't been able to find your installation document at the Megasquirt site. Any chance you could email it to me?

Thanks,
Bill in MD
bmacfarl&fastmail.fm change_the_&_to_@_thanks!

By Steve R on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 11:31 am:


Bill, go to the "technical" folders on this very site... my doc is the last one. Michael put it on a few days ago.

regards

By bmacf on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 05:39 pm:


Steve, I made an earnest effort, but to no avail. How about the actual name of the folder?

Thanks,
Bill

By joey on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 09:03 pm:


bill, its at the actual website not the forum.

on teh red drop downmenu on the left, click on "technical", it will drop down to a list of FAQs and such, steve's as he said is the last on the list..

ahh, hang on...

here you go.. click:

http://www.alfagtv6.com/MegaSquirt/Megasquirt.htm

By Simon Holywell on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 04:27 am:


You can also download a good PDF version from http://www.fulloctane.com

By Peter Webb on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 09:49 am:


Ok, you guys reminded me that we need a Documentation thread here too.

Steve, can you post a link to your document as the first post over there. I'll see if Michael can post a copy of the MegaManual too along with the PDF wiring diagram, fp modification and perhaps some msq files.

-Peter

By bmacf on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 11:33 am:


Got it! I misunderstood - thought I had to go to the Megasquirt site. Thanks!

http://www.alfagtv6.com/MegaSquirt/Megasquirt.htm

Bill in MD

By joey on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 06:45 am:


Hi Peter,

you may recall a few months back i told you i ordered my MS kit from glensgarage.com.. well it finally arrived... yes it was a fair delay, but he did warn me of this, and well it has come as promised and is wonderfully packaged.. you did ask how this turned out and well, a picture is a thousand words !

the kit including cnc case, stim and flyback:



the stim kit showing individual baggies, with resistors etc all divided up and labelled !



all in all, i'm very happy with the service glen provides, its well done and doesnt cost anything extra, i paid $202USD for all that was included with shipping to Oz being $11USD on top..

By David S on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 01:42 am:


Joey,
I ordered my MS kits from Grippo & Digikey last night, Email from Digikey today says its been shipped today! Not sure how long the Grippo items will be though as a I had to send a money order.

I'd be interested to know how you go with it. I'm doing a 3.0L stock conversion with bigger inlet runners, reamed 2.5 plenum and using the 3.0L inlet manifold and injectors.

Are you going to use an O2 sensor? I don't have one of these as yet.

By the way, do you know whether the 164 3.0L has S cams as standard and how are they identified?

David (in Brisbane)

By joey on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 02:02 am:


hi david,

yeah, to tell the truth i wasn't worried by the delay, i've been too busy to care, and unfortunately this hasn't changed.

yep, i'ld def want to get my hands on a wideband for this, its kinda essential for the tuning, most MS maps i've seen out there are for hot 3.0s, and i'm sticking with a stock 2.5l.. i dont have one yet either, looking to grab one soon, i think zamani was offering them for 35USD(IIRC) at one stage.. looking to grab one of his offer is still available..!?

your build seems a good one, and good job with the motronic (oops! 'high-z') injectors, that'll save you from doing the flyback board..

on the 164, i havent a clue.. someone like barry would know how to identify them... i strongly doubt however, that they came standard on all 164s, since there were a variety of power outputs offered here.. if it was one of the real early ones, i would imagine not... if some how you knew the cr to be 9.5:1 then i would assume not.. IIRC our "s" engine was offered in the 164'Q'.

if i have time tonight i might whip up the stim and post it...

btw, did you manage to find a dead l-jet ecu up north to stick your ms in? if so, how much did you pay if you dont mind me asking?

cheers

joe

By joey on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 09:56 am:


yeppo, stim kit done.. piece of cake.. didnt take too long...

my rating = 2 beers difficulty (its a handy time elapse indicator too ! refreshing to boot!)



hopefully it'll be the flyback tomorrow... donno about the actual ms kit tho, need more time.. if you do plan to go wideband, some mods need to be done to push voltage range up.. this guy is a handy reference.. shame about his soldering job tho ! (oooh arrogance !!)

http://www.mez.co.uk/ms9.html

cheers,

By David S on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:45 am:


Joey,
Sorry I didn't see your last ? until I re-read the post. I have a spare good ECU but I still might look for a dead one to put the MS in.
Received the Digi-key stuff today! Not bad since I only ordered last Wed night. Now, if I just had something to solder all the parts to.
I've got the bung for the O2 sensor so will weld into the exhaust while it's off the car and track down a sensor.

David S

By Matt on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 11:36 am:


Hey all.

My MegaSquirt installation has been successful.
I am busy driving round with it now. But I do keep the old AFM and ecu in the boot, as I have needed it once.
My wiring in the car was very noisy, so I was getting tach spikes, which was causing the car to not idle. Fixed that up now, and im trying to get the VE Table sorted out.
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