ALFAGTV6.COM

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Wed May 18, 2005 8:30 am

Hey everybody, does anyone have MSnS-E running with the Bosch module from the 164 yet? I am in the planning stages and have a few questions. Below I've put together a diagram of what I've learned so far for the install. My questions are as follows:

1. Why take the Hall signal off the advance control unit (located in passenger footwell)? Why not just take the signal right from the distributor and eliminate the advance control unit altogether? This would seem to improve the reliability of the overall system.

2. There are two options for getting the Hall signal into MS, depending on the sensor setup. Did I get it right (in the diagram) for the Alfa V6 regarding MS pins 24 and 25?

3. Just checking, but you don't use the tach signal from the ignition coil for anything?

4. The only mods to the MS board are shorting X11 to XG1? Perhaps I already did this when I went to fuel only MSnS.

5. Any problems with overheating the bosch module with this arrangement. I'm reading all the cautions at msefi.com and am a little concerned.

6. Please let me know if you think the diagram is correct. If not, let me know, I'll fix it and repost the correct diagram for others to use.

Thanks,
Bill in Maryland, US

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Wed May 18, 2005 2:07 pm

Woops, that image didn't come up. It should have been:

Thanks,
Bill

Steve R · Post by **Steve R** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:27 am

Hi Bill,

Had some problems with this myself, so here's my 2c worth:-

I used a scrapyard souced bosch ignitor and coil, a spare gtv6 distributor welded up and following the usual MSns-E instructions I could fire the ignitor and coil, no problem.

The problem I found was getting MS to both "feed" and "read" the stock OEM distributor sensor. I'm not saying it can't be done, only that I didn't figure out how! The only way I got is to work was a hybrid solution using a feed from the stock Alfa ignitor that goes via the outer path of the green coax cable to the sensor, then interupting the signal back via the inner part of the coax and sending that to the MS. I forget which pin, but I'll check at home tonight.

Oh yeah the 20+year old green coax is sooo fragile you might as well change it straight away... go on, guess how I know this !

Three problems with my approach. I didn't like the inelegant idea of driving round using a "botched" hybrid solution with two ignitors doing half the job each. Secondly using the trial and error approach to getting it working I inadvertantly broke something else in the MS box (turned out just to be a loose connection on the flyback circuit). Thirdly I was concerned the original alfa ignitor might overheat when used like this (although it seemed OK)

I got it running but didn't like what I'd done so for the time being I reverted to just using the stock ignition whilst I did other projects (poly bushes etc).

fyi You need to run version .358 or later of code, this allows you to use a welded up stock distributor with the sensor set at 10 degrees BTDC or so when static. This allows you to have instant stock ignition timing for starting then to run "next cylinder" spark when running.

Sorry I can't give more help at the mo, other than confirm later whether it was pin 24 or 25 that worked.

Steve

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Fri May 20, 2005 3:12 am

Steve, thanks for the information. I had no idea that there was feed and read to the hall sensor in the distributor. Is it possible we have different distributors? I thought there was 12V to the hall sensor and then +5V/0V from the sensor. Do you have any more information on "feed" and "read" - I'm not seeing anything on msefi.com.

What Bosch ignition module were you running? I was planning to go to one like 0 227 100 137 that is able to control dwell on its own and only rely on the signal from pin 30 on the MS box. I'm reading that there is also a "dumn ignitor" Bosch module like 0 227 100 124 that cannot control dwell and relies on the ECU to do this.

I think I've exhausted the list of information on msefi.com regarding the Bosch ignition module. Now I need to research sites of people who are using this setup. So far I've found a site for a person with VW rabbit who is using the 137 ignition module and apparently it works pretty well. Let me know if you've found anybody else.

Thanks!
Bill in Maryland, US

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:18 am

Houston, we have ignition!!!

OK, I'm able to get the engine started and idling....very rough though. I have to tune the ignition table. Anybody running MSNS-E with the 12x12 table and running ignition? I'd like to see what your ignition table looks like.

I'll post details on how to setup MS to control ignition via a bosch module when I have it running smoothly. Right now its not worth your time the way its running.

Bill in Maryland

Post by **Zamani** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:13 am

Bill,

The ignition table should be similar on all EFI. Usually the values are degrees advance BTDC.

To be safe, at idle set it to 0* BTDC and check with timing light if it is actually 0*. Make sure vacuum advance hose is take off.

Next try starting off with 10 degrees BTDC and increase it 2 degrees every 500 rpm and stop at 26 degrees.

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:44 pm

Hey Zamani, that did it! First I took the distributor advance curve on page 00-34 in the Milano manual and converted those settings to KPa, and put those in my table (KPa vs RPM) at 850 RPM. Then I just added 2 degrees for each 500 RPM up to 26 degrees total advance. It feels pretty good idling and reving in my garage. A road test will have to wait until I can get all the wires organized and orderly again.

For anyone reading this thread, I think Steve Rosser's earlier post utilizes a different distributor than we have here in the US. I think he was using a VR resistor and not the Hall Effect we have.

And wouldn't you know it, my cooling fan stopped working. How am I supposed to go for a test drive without a cooling fan?

Stay tuned, thanks for all the help.

Bill in Maryland

Post by **Zamani** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:59 am

Bill,

I'm about to build myself an MS. OK so should I get an MS to start with and do the mods to use MSnS or should I go with MS-II? Aren't you using MS with the 12X12 table?

I'm trying to help a GTV6 3.0 racer in the Malaysian Classic Series. He's still using L-Jet.

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:10 am

Zamani, that's a tough one. I assume MSII has come kind of ignition control features, but I don't know if it has all of the features like you see at http://megasquirt.sf.net/extra/, and that would be key to me.

For myself, I was going to wait at least 6-mos. more before I go to MS-II. That allows some time for them to get rid of any bugs and develop a network of support for new features. If you're going to a new system now, though, I'm not sure which to recommend. I'll try to read up on MS-II, but hopefully in the meantime somebody else can comment on the new system.

Oh, and yes, I'm using MS-II with the 12x12 system. I'll be adding in the rev-limiter soon and then anti-rev (during down shift) control.

Please keep us up to date as you build your MS.

Bill in Maryland

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:12 am

Zamani, I just spent about 15 minutes on msefi.com. I'd say MS-II is the way to go. It integrates a lot of the spark control features from MSNS and other spark control modifications to the original MS. Given that MS-II is still early in its release there are potential bugs to be worked out or at least application specific issues to be worked out, but if you're willing to deal with that, MS-II appears to be the way to go.

Let us know how it goes. I think I'll build an MS-II this fall and gradually switchover to that ECU and use my current MS as a backup.

Bill in Maryland

Post by **Zamani** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:00 am

Actually, the MSII kit ($200+) is about as expensive as a bare bones GoTECH ($400).

How much work was it to get MS to work with the 12X12 table and ignition?

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:10 pm

Me? It took forever. Now Peter, Michael and Steve, I think it took them two weeks. I basically worked half-an-hour every worknight for several weeks to build the box; the same to build the harness; and then it took me just a few days to get it up and running. Then to switch to 12x12 tables (fuel only), one hour. Ofcourse I've not completely finished the spark conversion (perhaps this weekend).

I guess it depends what they give you with that other system. If its plug and play, and has all the features, why even consider MS? But if GoTech has to be built and installed, doesn't have the features and doesn't have the wide user base, go with MS.

Post by **Zamani** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:24 am

Bill,

Did you buy the parts from the Digikey site? I think if you mention MS they have it all packaged...right?

Sorry this questions is quite irrelevant.

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Zamani

i bougt mine from glen, www.glensgarage.com here a pic of what you get

bmacf · Post by **bmacf** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:10 pm

Hey that deal at Glen's garage looks pretty good for an MS I kit. Less expensive than what I paid a year ago I think. No MSII kits yet, though.

My Digikey kit arrived incomplete - they were nice about it though. I don't mind paying a guy like Glenn a little more if he makes sure I get the right parts. I'll look at him first for an MSII kit.

Still grinding away on installing MSNS-e. My rotor phasing was off and my ignition would start to miss around 3500rpm. Now I've changed things and everything is screwed up. Ay-yie-yie.

Bill in Maryland

MSnS-E with Bosch Module