Related to the Bowling & Grippo Fuel Injection system.
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Steve R
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Post by Steve R »

the MSnS e or extra code I'm refering to is a code upgrade for the existing ECU processor. Basically put it in "Boot" mode and just upload the new version s.19 file. The awkward part is the megatune software also has to be tweaked to fit too.

The documentation for this on the MS site is more than a little disjointed and confusing I agree ! :shock:

I'll put together some notes shortly to clarify, but unfortunately I have to get some other work out of the way first. :(
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Post by bmacf »

Peter, thanks that helps. I want to go to MSnS-E and the first step is modifying my hardware? I couldn't find anything on msefi.com about the hardware modifications - am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,
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Post by P.Webb »

No hardware changes needed for MSn-E fuel only. When you do ignition you'll need some mods depending on what ignitor and trigger you go with.

The MSn-E programmers have 60-2 working now.

The easiest thing to do is use the existing Hall trigger and a Motronic ignitor. Take the Hall sensor inputs from the Bosch CDI unit in the kick panel to the MS in on 24, then do the FIdle out mod to the ignitor. Replace the existing ignitor under the coil with the Motronic unit from a 164, VW, Saab etc.

For now, just download the MSn-E code and you should be good to go. I have an even better 12x12 table I just tuned yesterday that I'll post on my site when you're ready. It should be a flash, table load and go.

-Peter
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Post by bmacf »

Hey Peter, thanks for the explanation on Msn-E. I definitely plan on going to it soon. After spending 3 weeks on my exhaust, I got back to MS tuning yesterday and nothing was going right. Sometimes I could get the idle right and then I'd step on the gas and it would stall. Sometimes I would get a sloppy idle, but it would accelerate well. I've decided to go back and read through the Megamanual again to make sure I understand everything before I proceed. Once I get everything tuned with standard MS, then I will go to MSn-E and started playing with all the bells and whistles.

I hope to catch up with you guys soon and be able to discuss Msn-E.

Thanks,
Bill in MD
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Post by P.Webb »

Let us know how it goes.

-Peter
Last edited by P.Webb on Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bmacf »

Thanks Peter. I got my Milano to run pretty well this weekend and so I'm ready for the MSN-e upgrade this weekend. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks,
Bill
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Post by Peab »

Have any of you tried out the Megatunix software with the extra code? Does it work well ?

I am planning to use a laptop with Linux for my MS install, and then Megatunix is the way to go. I have Megatunix running in stim-mode with the default code.

Megatunix has support for the E code, but i havn't tried it out.
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Post by P.Webb »

I haven't tried MegaTunix with the -E. I have MegaTunix running under Winblows with WinGTK. I guess I could try it out on my spare MS box.

For the $100 I really recommend people build a spare MS. It's great to test with and experiment with. I'll just flash the 020i into my spare fire up MegaTunix and see if it works. I don't even need to go to the garage.

Along with a stim, you can test everything on the kitchen table before messing with a running setup in the car. Plus, it's always good to have a spare just in case.

You can forgo buying the case for the spare. I run mine just laying on the table where I can see the LEDs.

Another thought. If you're unsure of your assembly and soldering skills, build the spare first. No big deal if you get something wrong or have to fix/replace components. Once you get it working and comfortable, build the one that's going to run in the car and save the practice MS for testing.

-Peter
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Post by bmacf »

Hey all, I've got MSn-E up and running. Peter, thanks for posting the .s19 file, the Megatune files and your msq file. That made it very straight forward.

And whoa! MSn-E makes everything much smoother. I've got a current stumble off idle though and I'm going to have to figure that out. Warm up and idle is still a little rough, but everything else sure is sweet!

Anybody got the spark control running via the GTV6/Milano hall sensor as has been described by Peter? It looks fairly straightforward. Peter, I see your msq file has some spark tables in it - can I expect those tables will work for me?

Thank you very much,
Bill in MD
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Post by P.Webb »

Those tables are basically what came in the MSn-E code with some mods I made. A total guess on my part.

I'm doing the EP Alfetta on 3/26 so I'll have a dyno tuned spark table in a couple of weeks. I'll post a VEX file after the tune.

-Peter
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Post by bmacf »

Hey Peter, good luck with your Alfetta at Joliet. Let us know if you post pictures.

This morning was my first venture into tuning the VE tables with Megatune. First, I added an rpm row for 600 rpm. That made the idle much smoother. Then I richened the off idle mixture real-time using the Megatune real-time tune feature. Pretty cool stuff. Don't forget to turn off enrichments (O2 and tps) - I forgot initially.

How are you all tuning your VE tables while you drive. Is there a program that does it automatically or do you take a MS saavy co pilot along with you to tweak the tables?

One other thing, I have shankle headers and that moves the O2 sensor bung back further from the head. I think during idle the O2 sensor gets cold and the readings are flawed. So I changed the O2 sensor enrichment so it comes on at 1200 rpm rather than 700. I think the cold O2 sensor problem was causing some exhaust smoke when I accelerate from a stop light after sitting for a while. Initially I thought it was because my rings still haven't seated but now I'm hoping I solved the problem. Stay tuned.

Thanks for all the help,
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Post by P.Webb »

bmacf wrote: Hey Peter, good luck with your Alfetta at Joliet. Let us know if you post pictures.
It's not actually my car. It won't be at Joliet but I'll probably be supporting it at some races this year. I'll keep you posted, especially if it makes the Runoffs!
bmacf wrote: This morning was my first venture into tuning the VE tables with Megatune. First, I added an rpm row for 600 rpm. That made the idle much smoother. Then I richened the off idle mixture real-time using the Megatune real-time tune feature. Pretty cool stuff. Don't forget to turn off enrichments (O2 and tps) - I forgot initially.
That MSQ should have O2 correction off. I don't use it. My car idles at 1100 RPM because of the cams. Remember there's a table-top/table-bottom effect in the VE table so it won't interpolate below the minimum setting. If the lowest bin is 1000RPM anything below will take that setting. What you've done is forced it to interpolate between 600 and 1000 RPM to stabilize the idle mixture.
bmacf wrote: How are you all tuning your VE tables while you drive. Is there a program that does it automatically or do you take a MS saavy co pilot along with you to tweak the tables?
My tuning method is to datalog and tune. Once you get good at reading datalogs it's pretty easy. The hard part is finding enough road to do all the driving conditions. Get as good a datalog as possible, especially in the problem areas. Look at it through MSLVV to determine what's going on and make MSQ adjustments accordingly. If you use the playback feature in MSLVV you can watch as if you were sitting in the drivers seat. If you run MT along with MSLVV in the bench tuning session, you can pause MSLVV, make the MSQ adjustment and continue playing. Keep test driving and datalogging until you have it right. I probably spent 3 tanks of gas in a weekend getting my initial tune right. But you don't have to twist my arm to go out and drive my Alfa :)
bmacf wrote: One other thing, I have shankle headers and that moves the O2 sensor bung back further from the head. I think during idle the O2 sensor gets cold and the readings are flawed. So I changed the O2 sensor enrichment so it comes on at 1200 rpm rather than 700. I think the cold O2 sensor problem was causing some exhaust smoke when I accelerate from a stop light after sitting for a while. Initially I thought it was because my rings still haven't seated but now I'm hoping I solved the problem. Stay tuned.
It's a heated sensor so that shouldn't be a problem. The problem with the Shankle headers is the O2 sitting in only 1 bank. If you have a problem with 1 cylinder in the bank it's reading it could throw your whole tuning off. I'm installing an H-pipe this spring and mounting the O2 sensor in the center.

Let us know how the rest of the tuning goes.

-Peter
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Post by P.Webb »

I'm taking the plung with the .021u code this weekend. That's the version that has some tach smoothing fixes and has the advanced wheel decoding. It should work with the 60-2 wheel.

I have it bench tested using my MSQ file converted to the new extra signature. If this works, I'll install a 164 front pulley and VRS and use it for tach/crank-angle.

Once that's all working I can install the Motronic ignitor for spark control. I'll wait to do the full EDIS system.

What this buys me that EDIS doesn't, is a rev limit, launch control and flat shifting. Not that I *need* any of these things but it's my nature to try out all the new gadgets.

This should make a Motronic conversion a snap once I get it working. Anyone installing a 164 3.0 into their GTV6 can retain the 60-2 crank angle and convert to MS at the same time.

-Peter
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Post by bmacf »

Hey Peter, what are the benefits of going to that setup over using the Milano distributor/hall effect sensor approach? Does the number of teeth on the encoder wheel provide better resolution or control or something?

What's "flat shifting?"


Drove my Msns milano to work today - loved it. Still a little rough at start up and I need to work on that.

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Post by P.Webb »

No advantage I can see. Just climbing the mountain because it's there. Maybe it will help someone with a Motronic car (164/155) convert. I just like to be different.

Ideally, I'd prefer to do the EDIS setup. The downside is I have to swap out the oil pump for a 164 pump that has the threaded shaft to lock it down when I remove the distributor.

I'll get my fill of EDIS with the EP car. I'll get my fill of hall sensor or VR trigger with the ITB car.

The interesting thing about the ITB car (Spider) is being so constrained by the rules. The rules state I can change the trigger but it has to retain the stock distributor and any changes have to be contained within the distributor unless it was already crank fired from the factory. The module is unrestricted. Doesn't make a lot of sense but that's the SCCA for you.

Now, the interpretation challenge becomes:

1) The Spider reads crank angle from the flywheel so does that make it a factory crank fired system.

2) If 1 is true, do I have to use the factory crank fired system or can I use any crank fired system so long as it was crank fired originally.

3) Can I diddle the Extra 021u code to read the flywheel/ring-gear sensor for crank angle. It allows for inputting the number of wheel teeth but it doesn't have any missing.

4) Could I loosely interpret the rules to use a TS front pulley with 60-2 wheel and Motronic ignitor.

I'll let you all know how it goes. I'll do the Extra021u2 code upgrade this weekend still fuel only. Once I get that working, I'll install a 164 60-2 wheel and front pulley and wire the VRS directly into the MS to take tach only leaving the stock ignition in place.

Once I have the crank angle all worked out, I'll replace the ignitor with the Motronic ignitor for advance control. The Motronic ignitor already has dwell built in.

It looks very easy. A pin to coil(+) for switched 12V, a pin to coil(-) for advance/charge and a wire to Fidle on the MS. It looks like I won't have to make any changes to the MS hardware at all.

Stay tuned

Flat shifting: Set a switch on the clutch pedal to the MS. When the switch is open, impose a rev limit of something around 2500 RPM. When you go to shift, keep the gas pedal firmly on the floor. When you push the clutch, the rev limit takes over and holds RPM @ 2500 (or whatever rev matching limit you choose). Same principle for launch control. Put the clutch and gas to the floor. The limiter holds the revs to launch limit. Traction control works in a similar way.

-Peter
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