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Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:38 am

Having tried to find out just what the h3ll MS actually is for a pretty long time I have come to the conclusion that everybody that contributes to the sites are either electro-freaks or just plain sociopats (except the members of this board naturally).

Is there even a faint possibility that I can get some help with the MS stuff without getting "helpful links" or technical mumbo-jumbo posted in the replies?

What I miss is the facts that is actually useful to me, info like
"Fuel calculations based on mathematical equations and physical formulas relating directly to your vehicle - many other existing systems rely soley on trial-and-error, estimation or guesswork for fuel delivery." or
"Input triggering for injection events is derived from an existing ignition system - either by connection to a conventional Kettering ignition coil (- terminal) or by using the TACH signal available from virtually any OEM or aftermarket ignition system. MegaSquirt uses an on-board opto-isolator to prevent damage due to inductive kickbacks present on ignition coils." is just a stupid/fancy way of saying "It can control fuel" and "It can detect almost all types of rev signals"

This is the way it is on ALL forums about MS and there is always just bits and pieces of info and millions of cross links back and forth. Frustrating indeed...

-So, what can MS do in it's standard form. (2.2 or whatever it's called)?

-What is needed to control spark?

-8x8 vs. 12x12? What is the difference in hardware if any?

-MSII, plug in board, what does it mean in terms of features?

-If I buy a ready built MS with a flyback board, what do I need to make it control spark? Dizzy system now, nothing fancy.

Is it possible to answer these questions without saying "all the info is available on (insert link to insanely large forum here)" or the MSII is using (model number of processor) and thats is the difference.

I wanna know what it means to me, not what the electrons will experience.

I know that I'm asking a lot in this post but if you guys want more people to start using megasquirt you should realize that we dummys want simple info and doesn't care about the individual specs of the transistors, just what it means to us as users.

Thanks guys!

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:21 pm

Mats wrote: -So, what can MS do in it's standard form. (2.2 or whatever it's called)?

2.2 is the version of the PCB of MS...but 3.0 is coming very soon (it has the flyback board integreated and some other things

-What is needed to control spark?

just an upgrade of the firmware...it's simple...done in 5 mins

-8x8 vs. 12x12? What is the difference in hardware if any?

none...8x8 is the standard software code (3.00)...12x12 is MSII or extra-firmware

-MSII, plug in board, what does it mean in terms of features?

the board is a replace of the MSI CPU...(12x12 tables, IAC control, ignition control, and faster resolution than MSI, ecc...)

-If I buy a ready built MS with a flyback board, what do I need to make it control spark? Dizzy system now, nothing fancy.

firmware upgrade to MS'n Spark-extra

i hope this will help...sorry for my english....

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:36 am

Thanks enzo.

So both MS n spark and MS Extra makes ignition control available? Is this a simple curve that vary with enginespeed or is it a 3D map with speed and load?

Sounds like I want that "Extra" or MSII then, bigger VE table and spark control + some other stuff on the "II".

Is there any hardware changes going to Extra?
When going to MSII with the plugin board, is there a default hardware setting? I mean, if I need to alter the hardware, do I need to change that back when going to MSII?

I guess I know where to start reading now...

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:55 am

welcome Mats

Mats wrote: So both MS n spark and MS Extra makes ignition control available? Is this a simple curve that vary with enginespeed or is it a 3D map with speed and load?:)

it's the same firmware...have a look here for the features http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/
it's a 3D map....install MegaTune and have a look...it's easy to understand
http://www.not2fast.com/megasquirt/mt/M ... _setup.exe

Is there any hardware changes going to Extra?

it depends witch features you want to use, for fuel only no changes, for fuel & spark "no" changes, but you will loose the fidle function, if you want to keep it, there is a very little hw-change

When going to MSII with the plugin board, is there a default hardware setting? I mean, if I need to alter the hardware, do I need to change that back when going to MSII?

MSII is sold out at the moment...maybe one hw-change for the sark output, but it's very simple!

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:27 am

Ok, so MS'n spark is a kind of first version of Extra for "hall effect in distributor" typ installations? That first link actually was readable at first. Then I clicked the setup links and it all went south again...

I guess I'd understand it once I start fiddle about with it but right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should go down the MS route at all...

The fast idle is really nothing I will miss anyway. Spark feels much more essential for proper engine function somehow.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:07 am

Right!
Looks like I'll take the plunge and move to MS on at least one of my engines, probably the one I'm currently building.

I'll start off with a MS'n'Extra controlling fuel and spark, the 12x12 tables looks nice too.
Maybe move to EDIS later on but I'm going to try to at least get it set ut with this simpler solution first.

A couple of questions though.

1. With this simpler solution I can use a static distributor with a hall sensor to trigger it all right? I know I need the CAS with EDIS but that is for later.

2. TPS. Can I learn the MS to use my sensor or do I have to have a sensor already mapped up in the system? Space is severly limited...

I guess it's pretty straightforward once you get your hands in it but it would be nice to be able to know that the stuff will work.

Does anybody have a basic map for a Nord?

Maurizio · Post by **Maurizio** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:24 am

under succes stories there is this well covered up 2.0 nord.

Maybe sometime in the future my TS gets squirted, I also struggle with the same confusing info (lack of E back ground???). Is more something to dive into in the winter of 2006/07

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:51 am

One thing I have never understood, WHY have they integrated the MAP-sensor in the box itself? It's bloody difficult to route the vacuum line into the car...

An external sensor would have been soo much simpler, just a couple of wires to route.

Maurizio: do I see carbs? or is that ITBs? Whos car is that? Seven derivate?

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:59 am

Mats

hall sensor works fine and you can use every linear resistor type TPS, a switch type TPS is possible to

the rod has Suzuki 750 GSXR throttle bodies....clic an the posted link

Maurizio · Post by **Maurizio** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:59 am

He started of with carbs, then converted to TB and MS, see the "succes story" link to see the complete car!

Mats, what is the difference between a wire and a vacuum line to route into the car?

enzo was faster

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:54 am

enzo: Thats good news!

Means it will be easier to adapt to my engine.

Maurizio: Tree wires can be tucked into the regular harness and won't add anything to the bult of it (almost). A vacuum line is a lot more sensitive, a pinched line will cause major problems and it is also takes upp much more space and can't be bent in tight radii like a wire.
Routing a 300mm vacuumline in the engine compartment to a separate MAP sensor and then wires into the passenger compartment is very easy since you need to route loads of cables in there anyway.
Imagine having to route a capillary tube to the water temp gauge, one to the oil temp gauge, one for the oil pressure gauge, a wire for the speedo and one for the tach and so on. Not very modern if you ask me.

Peab · Post by **Peab** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:58 am

I installed MS on my GTV6 this spring, and when i came to the point of routing the vacuum hose into the cabin, i found a vacant hole complete with original rubber plug in the firewall on the passenger side. Next to where the main cablebundle goes in. To install the hose was done in notime.. Alfa had even made a cutout in the insulation for convenient access to this plug. Great stuff.

The thing about the MAP sensor used, is that it is made for circuit board mounting. If it were placed in the engine compartment i guess it would be required with a more robust MAP that can handle the heat involved and additionally it would require some sort of shielding/wireconnectors etc... meaning more expensive unit.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:33 am

AND throttle bodies on your engine for about 100-200 USD, that's sweet!

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:42 am

why don't use an old spica fuel injection for the ITB

they are very chep on ebay

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:25 pm

ITBs on a turbo? Don't think so...

Peab wrote: The thing about the MAP sensor used, is that it is made for circuit board mounting. If it were placed in the engine compartment i guess it would be required with a more robust MAP that can handle the heat involved and additionally it would require some sort of shielding/wireconnectors etc... meaning more expensive unit.

Yes, yes, I know, I'm whining...

But ALL OEM MAP sensors are placed in the engine compartment and it would be little different fron sourcing a ignition amplifier from a scrapped car.

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