I need help!!!
I’ve recently bought 3.0L engine for engine swap for my 85 GTV6(2.5L). The seller told me that engine is from MY1990, 75 and took it out of running car when 163.000km
I took it to local Alfa workshop for engine swap. Nextday owner of workshop call me and said that he suspect most of valves are bent.
He took out my tired 2.5L engine from my GTV6 and transfered good bits from my 2.5L engine like start motor, alternator and new engine mounting block. He try to turn crankshaft to check valve clearance. While he turn crankshaft, there was a point that he could not turn it anymore and he turn back crankshaft pully to P mark to check cam timing. Unfortunately he found camshaft timing is off by 1teeth on left and 2 teeth on right. He undid the timing belt and re-adjusted cam timing then put the timing belt back on. Now he could turn motor freely without any resistance. He perform the compression test and found that 75psi on No 1cylinder, 90psi on No 4cylinder, 70psi on No5 cylinder and 2,3,6 didn’t even registered. He did leak-down test and found all the air is escaping through intake and exhaust outlet. Finally he suspected that valve is vented and not closing properly.
I’ve contact the seller immediately and tell him what happen at workshop. He insisted that motor was out of running car and my mechanic is try to scam me off.
Can anyone tell me what is wrong with 3.0L?
3.0L engine swap and I need Help!!!
Last edited by jisop on Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Without actually checking the engine before buying it, and with the word of the mechanic against the seller, you may be screwed.......
Best of luck, though.
And if you do rebuild, your best place for help is ALfaGTV6.com As much info on repairs as you will need to do it yourself or at least know what to look for....
Best of luck, though.
And if you do rebuild, your best place for help is ALfaGTV6.com As much info on repairs as you will need to do it yourself or at least know what to look for....
Well, I know I’m screwed. You don’t have to mention that.
I just need to know that whether it is possible to turn engine to TDC(P mark at crankshaft pulley) and redo cam timing if you have bent valves in your engine.
After correcting cam timing, you can turn engine freely without hitting valves if you have bent valves.
I reckon if you have bent valves in your engine, you will still hit valves even if you’ve correct the cam timing.
Can anyone answer?
I just need to know that whether it is possible to turn engine to TDC(P mark at crankshaft pulley) and redo cam timing if you have bent valves in your engine.
After correcting cam timing, you can turn engine freely without hitting valves if you have bent valves.
I reckon if you have bent valves in your engine, you will still hit valves even if you’ve correct the cam timing.
Can anyone answer?
How long had the 3.0 l been sat around out of the 75 before you got it? was it stored outside?
Maybe you can go to the work shop and politely ask the mechanic to show you the lack of compression on 2,3,6 so that "you can understand what is going on", ie play a bit dum. that way you dont insult him if he is being straight with you.
sounds like maybe cambelt had already slipped before you got the engine. only a complete idiot of a mechanic would have tried starting the engine, before he checked the timing, and it sounds as if your mechanic, found this problem whilst setting it up.
Maybe you can go to the work shop and politely ask the mechanic to show you the lack of compression on 2,3,6 so that "you can understand what is going on", ie play a bit dum. that way you dont insult him if he is being straight with you.
sounds like maybe cambelt had already slipped before you got the engine. only a complete idiot of a mechanic would have tried starting the engine, before he checked the timing, and it sounds as if your mechanic, found this problem whilst setting it up.
It looks like you are asking if it is possible for so many valves to be slightly bent and the engine still turns with no interferance when timed appropriately. Usually we see catastrophic failures with holded pistons and valves broken off and the answer is clear.
Maybe the belt skipped 1 or 2 teeth and the valves are bent only a little....well, either way, you are going to have to pull the heads to check it out.
I would suspect that you have serious problems(bent valves) if all timing marks were set up right and compression is as you stated above, and the belt was off a few teeth. Do you have OEM cams?
Maybe you can just pull the valve covers and check the valve clearance. I would think that a bent valve would not retract completely into the head increasing the valve clearance gap. Of course, normal wear can also increase this distance.
The question about the engine sitting around for a while is important. Cylinders rust up internally and this may have scored the pistons/rings. Valves rust and may not seal properly. I think you need to pull the heads if you plan on keeping the engine.
If you do rebuild, be sure to read all you can about the cam belt tensioner. Don't give up because if you can resolve this, you will have beat the worst the GTV6/3.0 can throw at you!
Maybe the belt skipped 1 or 2 teeth and the valves are bent only a little....well, either way, you are going to have to pull the heads to check it out.
I would suspect that you have serious problems(bent valves) if all timing marks were set up right and compression is as you stated above, and the belt was off a few teeth. Do you have OEM cams?
Maybe you can just pull the valve covers and check the valve clearance. I would think that a bent valve would not retract completely into the head increasing the valve clearance gap. Of course, normal wear can also increase this distance.
The question about the engine sitting around for a while is important. Cylinders rust up internally and this may have scored the pistons/rings. Valves rust and may not seal properly. I think you need to pull the heads if you plan on keeping the engine.
If you do rebuild, be sure to read all you can about the cam belt tensioner. Don't give up because if you can resolve this, you will have beat the worst the GTV6/3.0 can throw at you!
Mjr,
I reckon 3.0Lmotor was out of car around Feb this year and kept in garage since.
I went to his workshop and he showed me the compression test result from his equipment, It is little tag(3cm X 4cm) showing compressions of each cylinder marked with ballpoint pen. My mechanic did not start engine. he found out this while he was checking valve clearance engine is still on hoist.
x-rad,
Thank for encouragement. Momentarily I been thinking about giving up on GTV6 and buying a Holden(GM), even thought I been driving Alfas since 18years old(now I’m38).
No I have to reparse this. Disappointed on people not on my GTV6.
Anyway....
I believe it is standard engine. Would it rust that much during last 6 months?
I reckon 3.0Lmotor was out of car around Feb this year and kept in garage since.
I went to his workshop and he showed me the compression test result from his equipment, It is little tag(3cm X 4cm) showing compressions of each cylinder marked with ballpoint pen. My mechanic did not start engine. he found out this while he was checking valve clearance engine is still on hoist.
x-rad,
Thank for encouragement. Momentarily I been thinking about giving up on GTV6 and buying a Holden(GM), even thought I been driving Alfas since 18years old(now I’m38).
No I have to reparse this. Disappointed on people not on my GTV6.
Anyway....
I believe it is standard engine. Would it rust that much during last 6 months?
jisop,
all may not be lost. I have had v12 aero engines lose compression whilst stored inside a workshop within 6 months, because they were not filled to the top with oil and inhibited. The motor my have been in a garage, but 1) all the oil would have drained out of the top ends, and 2) the piston rings can get stuck after 6 months of inactivity, along with rusty bores, it only needs very minor moisture (which can actually come from the oil , if its in poor condition, such moisture is acidic, and starts rust very quickly) 3) valve seats can rust up pretty quickly, it doesnt need much to lose all of the compression, a combination of sticking sticking rings, and cruddy valve seats. If the timinig is now right, I would fill up all the cylinders with really hot engine oil, for a few hours, and spin it over with the plugs out. that usually does the trick for rusty bores very quickly. As far as the valves go, The quickest thing to do, is take the heads of and check out the seats, clean em up. If you had some compression on the cylinders, a few runs would have sorted it, but you have none. try the oil trick first, that may sort it, the valves may be fine.
My gtv6 has slipped one tooth on the timing belt a couple of times over the years, and its never done any damage. Someone correct me if im wrong, but ibelieve that most of the time, if you are unlucky enough to sufer with this, the alfa v6 mainly slips a tooth or so during starting, hence why you normally get away with it.
all may not be lost. I have had v12 aero engines lose compression whilst stored inside a workshop within 6 months, because they were not filled to the top with oil and inhibited. The motor my have been in a garage, but 1) all the oil would have drained out of the top ends, and 2) the piston rings can get stuck after 6 months of inactivity, along with rusty bores, it only needs very minor moisture (which can actually come from the oil , if its in poor condition, such moisture is acidic, and starts rust very quickly) 3) valve seats can rust up pretty quickly, it doesnt need much to lose all of the compression, a combination of sticking sticking rings, and cruddy valve seats. If the timinig is now right, I would fill up all the cylinders with really hot engine oil, for a few hours, and spin it over with the plugs out. that usually does the trick for rusty bores very quickly. As far as the valves go, The quickest thing to do, is take the heads of and check out the seats, clean em up. If you had some compression on the cylinders, a few runs would have sorted it, but you have none. try the oil trick first, that may sort it, the valves may be fine.
My gtv6 has slipped one tooth on the timing belt a couple of times over the years, and its never done any damage. Someone correct me if im wrong, but ibelieve that most of the time, if you are unlucky enough to sufer with this, the alfa v6 mainly slips a tooth or so during starting, hence why you normally get away with it.
Heads were taken off yesterday and very disappointed with condition of engine.
Head gaskets had large holes and I found extensive rust damages on cylinder sleeves and even on alloy heads. I just wish that people would not sell engine like this to anyone at any price. This engine is just trashed and previous owner didn’t take care of at all . Seller insists that it is very good engine and taken out from running car. Previous owner must have known this engine had blown head gasket at least and valve is touching piston.
Blown head gasket caused extensive rust damages cylinder sleeves and even on alloy heads. Number 4 and 5 piston is very clean which shows coolant was leaking into these cylinders. I can see that marks on pistons and valves which shows valves was touching pistons. These are probably why previous owner change this engine and dumped this in his garage first place. I’ve found much carbon deposits between valve seat and valve and can see trace of engine oil burns on pistons.
Especially for bent valves, I will have close look of heads tomorrow.
Head gaskets had large holes and I found extensive rust damages on cylinder sleeves and even on alloy heads. I just wish that people would not sell engine like this to anyone at any price. This engine is just trashed and previous owner didn’t take care of at all . Seller insists that it is very good engine and taken out from running car. Previous owner must have known this engine had blown head gasket at least and valve is touching piston.
Blown head gasket caused extensive rust damages cylinder sleeves and even on alloy heads. Number 4 and 5 piston is very clean which shows coolant was leaking into these cylinders. I can see that marks on pistons and valves which shows valves was touching pistons. These are probably why previous owner change this engine and dumped this in his garage first place. I’ve found much carbon deposits between valve seat and valve and can see trace of engine oil burns on pistons.
Especially for bent valves, I will have close look of heads tomorrow.
- Attachments
-
- Extensive rust damages on RH bank sleeves
- 100_0215.JPG (176.62 KiB) Viewed 9893 times
-
- Marks on valve show that valve was touching pistons
- 100_0209.JPG (157.83 KiB) Viewed 9893 times
-
- RH head, 2th cylinder intake valve might be bent???
- 100_0207.JPG (202.84 KiB) Viewed 9893 times
-
- LH bank
- 100_0204.JPG (199.09 KiB) Viewed 9893 times
-
- RH bank
- 100_0203.JPG (202.47 KiB) Viewed 9893 times
Last edited by jisop on Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gees...I have never seen such orrosion in the water jacket before,not even in real old 4 cyl engines.. 
All is not lost though..the sleeves look good visually.If they are,pull the pistons and measure..Dont pull the sleeves from the block yet.
Id use caustic or hydrochloric to clean the rust out..carefull,not too long with all the ally...This process might also open up corrosive holes under the sleeves though... pull them now that all is clean and redo seals...
A block that is corroded under the sleeves can be sorted out by welding or ,if not bad,good ol grey silicon sealer ..I know a lot of people hate silicon sealer..I have no qualms about using it..
Put the plugs back in the head and fill the chambers with a liquid of some sorts..Id just use some petrol..see if the valves are REALY bent..I dont see marks indicating bent valves,but then again it realy does not take a big knock to bend a valve..
Take from there...Is it viable to repair or dump...
Btw,I have 6 intakes bent on a new 30l engine I did for a mate of mine...foreign object got into the timing belt..bugger...
All is not lost though..the sleeves look good visually.If they are,pull the pistons and measure..Dont pull the sleeves from the block yet.
Id use caustic or hydrochloric to clean the rust out..carefull,not too long with all the ally...This process might also open up corrosive holes under the sleeves though... pull them now that all is clean and redo seals...
A block that is corroded under the sleeves can be sorted out by welding or ,if not bad,good ol grey silicon sealer ..I know a lot of people hate silicon sealer..I have no qualms about using it..
Put the plugs back in the head and fill the chambers with a liquid of some sorts..Id just use some petrol..see if the valves are REALY bent..I dont see marks indicating bent valves,but then again it realy does not take a big knock to bend a valve..
Take from there...Is it viable to repair or dump...
Btw,I have 6 intakes bent on a new 30l engine I did for a mate of mine...foreign object got into the timing belt..bugger...
I agree with Barry, can't see any marks on the pistons that indicate valve/piston interference.
And as Barry said, clean everything thoroughly before drawing any conclusions. Anything can look bad if really dirty (yes, even me
).
I can add some pics to show you a v6 I dismantled a while ago, it wasn't pretty when I started...
And as Barry said, clean everything thoroughly before drawing any conclusions. Anything can look bad if really dirty (yes, even me
).I can add some pics to show you a v6 I dismantled a while ago, it wasn't pretty when I started...
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
That is a lot of rust!!! Someone must have used plain water (or salt water) instead of glycol.
Well, you did the right thing by pulling the heads. Too bad about the deal, though! I bought a 3.0 a few years back and it had about 1 inch of sludge and dirt everywhere and broken rings and bad liners. Luckily, you can still get liners with pistons but they cost about 700$.
These are tough engines. Likely, the bottom end is fine, including the C- rods . You are probably looking at replacing all bearings, polishing the crank, all new seals/gaskets, pistons and liners and rings, possible valve repacement, possible valve guide replacement, and valve springs. This will run you about $1200 US. If you are going to fix it, do it right. Plus, time and effort assuming you can do the work yourself. If not, add another $1000 at least.
If you have the time and money, I would rebuild it. It is quite an experience and you will learn much. On the other hand, you could buy a used running Verde for about $3500 US and yank out that engine and sell the parts...
Well, you did the right thing by pulling the heads. Too bad about the deal, though! I bought a 3.0 a few years back and it had about 1 inch of sludge and dirt everywhere and broken rings and bad liners. Luckily, you can still get liners with pistons but they cost about 700$.
These are tough engines. Likely, the bottom end is fine, including the C- rods . You are probably looking at replacing all bearings, polishing the crank, all new seals/gaskets, pistons and liners and rings, possible valve repacement, possible valve guide replacement, and valve springs. This will run you about $1200 US. If you are going to fix it, do it right. Plus, time and effort assuming you can do the work yourself. If not, add another $1000 at least.
If you have the time and money, I would rebuild it. It is quite an experience and you will learn much. On the other hand, you could buy a used running Verde for about $3500 US and yank out that engine and sell the parts...