Jim K
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Jim K »

Nah, you got the bad set!... :wall:
Of course they are the same profiles. Seeing that with my 24v cams I got 236whp, I would expect your cams to be significantly better regarding power. The timing suggestion I gave you was from some software the grinder has. No two engines are alike so playing with timing and evaluating results is a must, although most of us are too lazy to do it -myself included. If the engine has been mapped, altering cam timing will also change the parameters by which mapping was done... This is something best done on the dyno with matching mapping adjustments... How long does it take one to change cam timing several times :shock: and how much does dyno time cost? :shock: This is the proper way to do it for the best results, bar none. Don't think you'll be able to tell what the best timing is by road testing...unless timing changes are huge. Factory settings will of course work for acceptable performance but aren't you just wondering? :?: I know I am!
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Saabretooth »

Hi guys,

This is my first post and I'm glad to be reading up on most of the stuff here.

I've got the car set up reasonably nicely, but not at max power of what the cams can offer as it was installed using standard cam locks.

The workshop does not have the know how to use the other means to max it out, and no dyno either.

So far what's been done to the 3.2 Block

1) JK 10mm lift cams
2) 1.2mm skimmed off the heads
3) 4.5l carbon plenum fitted
4) 78mm Throttle Body.

On the exhaust side

1) 2.5 156 V6 manifolds with Equal Length Pipes
2) Novitec Exhaust.

On the dyno after the tune, I got 276hp @ 6700rpm.
The limit was raised to 7300 but I'm not sure why the dyno guy tapered off at 6700.

I'd like to find a shop in Singapore or Malaysia that could max out tuning the cams and lighten the pistons, and if necessary, balance the engine. 75evo, is there anyone that you use?
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by 75evo »

I knew Jim would do that to me!!! He said he put "brown grease" on my GTA crank and cams for extra protection from rust, but it had a "strong smell". Caveat Emptor!!

:mrgreen:


BTW, sabretooth, it might be a good investment in a set of adjustable cam gear. It's not cheap at all, but I honestly don't think it's worth opening up the engine again to lighten just a few grams from the pistons.

I cannot imagine loosening the cam pulley bolt on that taper while on the dyno.

You can try Ah Keong in Ipon (Tan Motor). He is the most technically astute guys. Others are mostly fitters, not tuners.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Jim K »

Ahahahah! You finally figured what that 'brown grease' was, heheh! :twisted:
Don't pay for adjustable gears, make your own by converting the std ones. I have a set I'm going to modify. The only cost will be the machine shop and the pantograph machine to scribe the lines and numbers. I haven't asked for cost yet, but it sure beats buying ready-made ones.... :shock:
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by 75evo »

Jim,

Do you need to use 8 stock pulleys to make 4 adjustable ones?
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Jim K »

No, the 4 original ones are modified. First, a round plate is precision fit inside the wheel (with a hole in the middle for the center boss). Then the inside part is cut off in the lathe, right in the middle of the 6 or 8 round holes. The outer and inner parts are fixed to the new plate with bolts. The plate has slots to allow rotation. You can also make 6 or 8 holes in the plate and paint it so it looks better. The hard part is scribing degree marks and this is done on a pantograph machine.
I must get around to make a set of these. Gotta ask how much the machine shop wants for the job and markings. The attached pic will clearly show how an adjustable gear is made. Inner/outer parts are retained and a plate is made to connect them and fit precisely inside the outer part.
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Cam gear.jpg
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by yetyGTA »

Welcome Saabretooth! Nice to have you here.

It gets really interesting. Following the advices and discussion I will ask Jim to help me with the cams and really tempted to buy the adjustable gears with that also.

If I understood well there are Renault profiles and some even more performance focused like Saabretooth has you call Mild. Is that right? Can 3.0 cams also be reprofiled or I have to get GTA ones?
Last edited by yetyGTA on Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Saabretooth »

75evo wrote:I knew Jim would do that to me!!! He said he put "brown grease" on my GTA crank and cams for extra protection from rust, but it had a "strong smell". Caveat Emptor!!

:mrgreen:


BTW, sabretooth, it might be a good investment in a set of adjustable cam gear. It's not cheap at all, but I honestly don't think it's worth opening up the engine again to lighten just a few grams from the pistons.

I cannot imagine loosening the cam pulley bolt on that taper while on the dyno.

You can try Ah Keong in Ipon (Tan Motor). He is the most technically astute guys. Others are mostly fitters, not tuners.
1) Thanks, What can Ah Keong do that fitters cannot? Does he have a dyno....etc that can tweak the cam timing?

2) So I probably won't go the lightening/balancing pistons route this time, maybe when I do an overhaul or something in the future.

3) Having had the car dyno'ed at 276hp, and so on then, I think there's a a few more hp to be gained at 6700rpm onwards, apparently the ignition coils are on its way out. might have to re-gap the spark plugs to work with higher compression and lessen the load on the coils. I'll only know when I switch out the coils next week.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Saabretooth »

yetyGTA wrote:Welcome Saabretooth! Nice to have you here.

It gets really interesting. Following the advices and discussion I will ask Jim to help me with the cams and really tempted to buy the adjustable gears with that also.

If I understood well there are Renault profiles and some even more performance focused like Saabretooth has you call Mild. Is that right? Can 3.0 cams also be reprofiled or I have to get GTA ones?
Thanks, I am keen on the adjustable gears too... imagine the fun with the numerous options there are.... and a headache of dyno time to just figure it out....


Jim,

Do we have to send you the gears or could you get a set for me from Greece.....

The last time I was the dodo that sent a set of cams to Greece for profiling. its a fair cost as the cams were given to me free by an owner who broke his car.... I could get my hands on the gears, but probably would be easier for me if Jim could get it there.

I'm technically"well" read, but as for hands on experience, I am no where near what you guys are doing and don't want to bust a very healthy and good engine, doing the wrong things.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Jim K »

I have not started making adjustable gears yet, I will do it in a few months time as I have other projects going on now. I will let you know when.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by yetyGTA »

Thank you Jim. I am not in hurry at all as my engine project will be a slow one. :)

Anyway would you please confirm it is possible to reprofile the 3.0 cams as well?

And also by reading your posts on AO it is not cleat to me now. Are you changing exhaust cams profile also? You wrote that inlet GTA cams could be used as exhaust... Thanks.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Jim K »

All 4 cams are reprofiled and they can be from the 3liter or from the gta engine.
You can use different cam combinations, as long as the intake cam has a little more duration and lift than the exhaust one. The only way to find the best combination is to try every one on the dyno.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by yetyGTA »

While planning. One of my first issues will be the flywheel as it needs to be balanced together with crank shaft and the main pulley. Since the one I have is completely useless I will need to buy the right one. Could you please advice me which one is the best option to fit in the GTV6 housing? Do I have to use the 2.5 12V or some other will fit also? Thanks.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by Saabretooth »

I've found that a friend of mine can set the cams up and also balance the V6 if necessary.
Thing is, he doesn't have the customized sprockets to adjust the cams bit by bit....

So I would need a set from Jim once you're done with your experiment :) hopefully sooner rather than later cause in Singapore, we don't get to keep our cars for very long.... 10 years max and I have 3.5 years left.


Also, since the cams are good for 100hp / L, getting 320hp out of the engine shouldn't be a problem :P

What would it take to set the engine up, in proper steps, to get there? We would be in the AD Supercharged Power category with 320hp.
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Re: 3.0 24V - your suggestions

Post by 75evo »

Tan Motor, I think he knows what dial indicators are used for when setting up or "degreeing" cams.''

BTW, I think you need both revs and properly setup cams. You probably need to go to 7K+rpm to see peak power.

Just look at the first few seconds of this vid. The white 156 is a very modified 3.2, the 147 is a 3.8 built by AHM in UK and the camera car is a stockish GTA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-EyRf792M
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