ALFAGTV6.COM

[Murray]

Greg, I just got around to reading the latest info on your tribulations.Just wondering what compression numbers are you seeing?
I'm at about 3000 miles with my Total Seal second rings and consumption is about 1/2 litre in 1500 miles with about 400 track miles included.I'm running Castrol 20/50 - as always and am hoping that consumption drops to near zero by 5000 miles or so,we'll see.I haven't had the guts to do a compression test yet but I'll do so soon (after I have a couple of glasses of vino rossa) Somehow I'm afraid to check my results after putting a whole winter worth of work into getting it right.Car starts and runs very well so I guess I didn't go terribly wrong.Ultimately the dyno will tell the real tale.I'll do that once I've got about 10k on her.
It must be really frustrating to put all that effort into your motor and still not have a clear conclusion as to the source of the oil consumption.Good luck and keep us updated.

[Greg Gordon]

Hi Merril,
I really apreciate your reading my site. Your engine is not likely to have any problems. I really would not worry about it. Our problem is highly unusual and is probably related to the strange piston design.

We did a compression check before changing the rings out and it had about 145 or so on each cyliner. While that's a little low keep in mind this thing has about 8.8:1 compression and was not broken in. Heck it used so much oil we couldn't drive it. Tons of smoke and a quart every 50 miles!

The new ring set eliminated the smoke and oil consumption improved to a still dismal quart in 250 miles. The motor is now broken in pretty well with about 3000 miles on it. It still burns a quart in 300 miles. We have not taken a compression check but I am sure it's OK, the engine has tons of power.

The greatest minds at Total Seal and Venolia don't really know why this is. They say it's something in the heads which it could be. We will find out soon enough because we plan to swap the heads out for another pair just to check. Frankely I don't see how it could be the heads. Everything was new and although it's possible the machine shop set the guides up a little loose I can't imagine that much oil getting past the guides. Keep in mind that each cylinder is burning an equal amount of oil so it's not specific to one cylinder.

We are planning to put the supercharger on it soon anyway and the next pair of heads. If it still burns oil that will verify that the non interference pistons design just doen't work. That would be too bad but when you design stuff yourself it doesn't always work out.

I think this is a piston design issue but we are still working on it.

[MerrilGordon]

Hi Greg & Murry,

Thought I’d comment on the SuperVerde’s oil consumption. I rebuilt a 3.0L myself a while back and experienced the same oil consumption problem. I installed upgraded S-pistons/cylinder barrels but changed out the supplied rings with TotalSeal gapless units. After putting approximately 1000 miles on the engine I couldn’t stand the fog of oil smoke following my car every time I took off from a stop light or accelerated hard. Note that I had no oil smoke that I could see on over-run which might have suggested leakage past the valve guides. Observations of the spark plugs showed them all to be quite black and oily.

I’ve rebuilt four engines so far in my motor-head hobby history and this engine has been the only problem one. My 3rd engine was an Alfa 2.5 V6 and had great results so I don’t think I’m a total klutz when it comes to this kind of activity.

I think the problem source for me was breaking in of the engine. I just drove it normally without revving it excessively for the first few hundred miles. Kind of like commuter driving, i.e. varied revs and loads but no hard running. This may be the source of our problems.

I guess it’s a controversial topic but here’s what I’ll do next time: Keep the revs reasonable but RUN THE P**S OUT OF IT ! Or to put it more specifically, load the rings against the cylinder walls with high cylinder pressures. I have two sources of info on this, my Dad who went through a Diesel technology program in the 50’s, and this web site: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Both said the rings must be loaded against the cylinder walls with high cylinder pressure to wear in a good seal. The web site says to pressurize the cylinders by loading the brand new engine right after it’s fully warmed up. Load the engine pretty hard and unload it (over-run/high vacuum) on a dedicated drive for at least 20 miles. Recommended driving location? A racetrack! Continue this aggressive break-in for a good 200 miles to ensure good sealing. The web site goes into reasonable detail with justifications for this argument.

I’m wondering if the TotalSeal gapless rings are extra sensitive to break-in and that’s why there’s been some oil burning problems. I’ve decided to go with standard rings for my fix and not take a chance on another set of TotalSeal units. I would still try them again on a future engine as I really like their concept. For the moment though, I just want to get my car back on the road.

Merril

[Greg Gordon]

Hi Merril, good thinking and I am thankfull for your post. This isnt a break in issue. Keep in mind we have built 3 engines with the same rings. We have used the same break in procedures on all of them. None smoked or used oil at all when first run.

I noticed a major magazines Project M3 turbo car had the same problem. They never really solved it and the guy writting the article doesn't do the work himself so it's tough to sort out what his car's problem was. However it seems it was some sort of custom piston/total seal ring combo.

We will get to the bottom of this. If a head change doesn't solve it (and I doubt it will) we will know it's piston/ring related.

Here is a theory which is a little wacky but may be correct. Since the oil control ring is a lot lower then the stock ring it's quite close to the centerline of the wrist pin. When the piston moves up and down it rocks slightly. The rocking will affect the oil control ring differently then it would with the ring in its normal position. Perhaps this causes the oil control ring to loose effectiveness.

Anyone else want to offer a theory?

At least for now the car is freakin quick! Plus it doesn't smoke much, it's just frustrating to have to add a quart of oil with every tank of fuel.

[Barry]

Hello guys...Greg,Ive used Chevvy 400 forged Arias pistons in my 3.8l conversions for ages..Thes are the thin stack pistons and the oil ring also hangs in fresh air for approx.20mm per side.(AT THE PIN)I dont have any oil controll problems with this setup..You want to post a pic of your piston or mail me instead??This is rather interesting and strange at the same time..Kevin had an oily smoker 12v a while back-Same symtoms you describe.I did his original heads 3 times and the problem persisted.I then change to a different set of heads and problem solved-this was also after pulling the motor apart and putting in 3 sets of new rings as well as barrel changes....Curiouser and curiouser as they say in the classics...

[Greg Gordon]

Hi Barry,
I don't have a good picture of this part of the piston. However the oil control ring is about 1/4 of the way down into the wrist pin hole. It's not in the air though, it's sealed by a teflon button per standard Venolia procedures.

I think the changing head plan is the best bet right now just because we need to eliminate the heads a possible problem and because it's relatively easy to do. I don't see what the variable could be in a different set of heads but....who knows?

I talked to my dad though and we plan to put the blower on it as is for right now. Then the car will be doing a MAJOR road trip, about 5000 miles. This will show off the reliability of the set up as well as give people a chance to see the car, ride in it, drag race against it...

As if this piston problem wasn't bad enough now I have a customer half the world away that has a supercharger that throws its belt. I need to get on top of that problem right away!

[Barry]

Greg,Ive used Venolia a long time ago in my 4cyl.turbo`s.Lots of clearence as per spec..Got them from the then John Shankle.....Worked great,but noisy.....

Bummer on the belt.....If hes in S.A. I can lend a hand.....

Barry

[Barry]

Actually it was Shankle automotive-John was the owner-is he still involved with I.A.P.??

[MerrilGordon]

I know changing the heads is a longshot but worth a try as it will eliminate them as a possible problem source.

Sounds like the engine Barry was working on solved it's oil problem by changing the heads. I wonder if it burned oil before the original rebuild? My engine didn't burn oil before so I hope there's no connection with the cylinder heads.

What's your engine break-in technique Greg (and maybe Barry too)?

Merril

[MD]

My run in technique is :

1 Use a monograde "engine running in oil" (I use Castrol)
2 Use a dyno with progressively increased and varying loads for about an hour with some shut downs and checks along the way for oil pressure and temps using master guages and adjust tuning as needed.
3 If all is well after that, change the oil for more of the same and do the rest of the run in on the road using some varying and hilly terrain.

[rz]

my rz 3,0 12v uses 1litre of oil every 1000 km,and every time i start the damn car there's a lot of smoke!when the engine is warm,no smoke anymore??
it was like that when i bought it with 5000 km.
maybe the valve seals dried after having only 5000 km in six years.
i believe the seals can be changed without taking of the heads???

[SPAIN]

Hi, I'm not sure if I have understood the problem but I am panicing. I have just ordered Total seal rings for my 1984 car suggested in this web. Should I fit them or not, I am still in time. I really thought it was a good replacement to stock. Please advise.

Thanks and regards,

Pancho from Spain

[Murray]

Pancho if you read the first post in this topic (mine) you will see that I am not experiencing problems with the Total Seal rings on my 1986 GTV6 - 2.5L.I rebuilt my engine this winter.It had 240,000 miles.I used my original pistons,original liners rotated 90 deg,and Total Seal ring set with no-gap second ring.I honed my cylinders myself per Total Seal's instructions.So far I am statisfied with the results.Greg's experience has nothing to do with his use of Total Seal rings ( excuse me Greg for speaking for you !) and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend you procede with your plans to use this product.

[Greg Gordon]

Wow, this topic has become busy. First of all I really don't think this is a Total Seal related problem. We have Total Seal rings on 3 other motors and they have been excellent. This problem is either some mysterious head issue or something to do with our strange piston design. It's NOT a problem with TOTAL SEAL RINGS. As I have said before whenever you change something from factory specs you risk running into a problem. I change stuff all the time, usually with success. However I am not afraid to make my failures public and this is one of those failures (maybe, we will find out)

I would not build an Alfa V6 without Total Seal rings. The folks there have been so helpful during this situation it's incredible.

RZ, that sounds like a valve seal issue. They can be changed with the heads on the car although if it only smokes right after start up I wouldn't bother.

Merril, I don't know if the engine burned oil before. We bought it not running. We broke it in the same way we always do, by driving like a normal human being but varying the RPM and so on. Exacty the way Total Seal says to do it. There is no way this is a break in issue, we have done this so many time before.

Barry thanks for the offer. It appears the belt issue is solved, it was a tensioner alignment problem....whew.

[Vince]

Maybe I should add some comments on Total Seal gapless rings. I have them in my re-built 2.5V6 engine and its done 60,000km now. Brillant rings, compression was excellent. Oil consumption is about a liter every 5K. This is using 20W50 mineral oil. Engine oil was hardly contaminated (light tan color) at each service interval of 5000km.

I am quite sure it's not the rings, checked the spark plugs and they are bone dry and deposit free. Guess the guides are shot, most likely? What are symptoms of worn valve guides...anyone please?

Vince