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Zamani
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Post by Zamani »

I'm pretty sure Jes understands Autotune well. It's basically control systems and maybe some DSP which he is a specialist in.

Autronic has this feature (it's on my ECU).

GoTech's barebones kit sounds tempting. Seriously, if you get the barebones kit (ECU only) it's nearly the same price as a pre-built MS.

MS is only beneficial if you build everything by yourself so you can save money and learn. User base is also very large.

The closed loop learn thing, well I don't think it can "learn", JJ maybe I'm wrong on this?

But if it is closed loop, then most likely the feedback is form a narrowband O2 sensor, and so is limited to within a 1V range between about 13.X to 15 A/F, after that the Volt. vs. A/F relation is no longer linear and the fuel trimming done by the ECU based on the feedback becomes inaccurate.

So in order for the closed loop circuit to become useful, the map needs to be fairly accurate.
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Post by junglejustice »

Well, also autotune is NOT a magic bullet... Autotune will give you automatic STATIC adjustment across the entire rpm range (again, statically across loads) but will not compensate for load levels!

Accurate tuning (such as what Dawie and Domingos achieves) will compensate for A/F under load at low rpm, (leaner up to close to the point of pre-detonation), then again for high rpm under load, (pretty rich) and then also for no-load cruising...
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Post by SamW »

JJ/Jes,

I think I did, I was wondering if you had a wide band O2, if it could be plugged to GT and the "Other" thing at the same time, so you could get the accurate reading while operating in Closed Loop mode with GT.

I ran into Relay trouble last night, so still not running yet, I am getting the trigger from the ignition to the relay and 12v power to the relay, but it is not getting 12v to the other side of the relay, the trigger seems to work, I get a slight increase in volts (from 120 mv to around 400 mv) so it may be a simple as a ground. I tried three different relays, so I think it is a bad connection between the steering wheel and the seat right now... I will hopefully have my electrical engineer out this weekend to help with the car, so no big worries yet...
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Post by SamW »

And another thing about GoTech is the wiring harness that comes with it, yea, there are a few small additions to make, but that is worth the price of the system, because it comes with the newer easy on/off bosch connectors!
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Post by 4SFED4 »

junglejustice wrote:Well, also autotune is NOT a magic bullet... Autotune will give you automatic STATIC adjustment across the entire rpm range (again, statically across loads) but will not compensate for load levels!
It ABSOLUTELY does JJ. You are simply incorrect on this. You just need to tune with it once and you will never want to go back to the manual mode again.
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Post by ar4me »

Sam,

Just a silly question: The trigger for the relay comes from the ignition switch (as you have done). Did you remember to ground the "other end" of the relay trigger mechanism?

At least a standard relay as I used for my fuel pump has
1. fuel-pump power source in
2. relayed fuel pump power out (to the fuel pump)
3. trigger in (from ignition switch)
4. ground other end of trigger

There is one extra pin on the relay that I didn't use.

Anyway, just a silly thought...

As to your question. I have a new O2 sensor ready to be plugged in for closed-loop. At that point I will just put the monitoring O2 sensor (for the AFR meter) in the tail pipe. However, for now, I actually took out the old O2 sensor and mounted the monitoring O2 sensor (for the Innovate Motorsports AFR equip) at the stock O2 sensor location. Supposedly, on a car with cat, you get the most accurate AFR reading before the cat. So, while possible I decided to put it there for a more accurate reading. Anyway, long story, but yes you can get the AFR reading and have GoTech in closed-loop, by using two O2 sensors. One for GoTech and one for your AFR equip. If you want the one for the AFR equip prior to the cats you can have an additional bung welded into your exhaust system in the vicinity of the stock one, and then screw in a plug when you are done.

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Post by SamW »

Not a silly thought at all, I have to look at it, I think I kept all the grounds, but I will check and make sure, I kept most of the grounds right there at the combo at the Valve Cover, so maybe this is not a good enough ground or maybe I just missed the ground for that side of the Combo Relay. I am going to try and copy your harness for my GTV6, I may pick up seperate relays for the ecu and Fuel pump, but trigger them the same.

OK, so you would have to have seperate O2 sensors to do that, I guess that was my question, I have a new O2 in mine, so I will see how it works. Did you get a chance to mess with the knob on the front of the GT unit?
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Post by ar4me »

I got too busy last night - sorry. What I will do, tonight or Saturday, is to take a cell with AFR 14.7 and then see how far up and down the AFR goes adjusting the dial in either direction (I have it almost at center right now).

You are probably aware of this. But, since you are using the stock dual-relay, I wonder if you need the old L-jet AFM trigger to activate the fuel pump - see JJ's posts somewhere regarding this.

Jes
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Post by Mats »

Jes: If you got a wideband plugged in remember to have it powered up whenever you are running the engine or it will die.

Also, there are WBo2 sensor packages that uses a WB unit and can send out an emulated NB signal to be plugged into the ECU or whatever that needs the OEM signal. Very nice solution for just having one probe.
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Post by ar4me »

Yeah, I know. So, right now my passenger front area looks more like an electronics lab.

Any pointers for one of those WBO2-with-NB-output units? That sounds real good! Both for the street milano (with the GoTech), but also for the 3.7!

Jes
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Post by enzo »

Jes

I have a wbo2.com 2A0, and i'm very happy...it has a simulated NB output...
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Post by Mats »

there you go, I didn't know they had that functionality actually. Clever guys. :)

Jes: I just wanted to make sure, even though sensors aren't as expensive these days it's still very unnecessary to break one. ;)
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Post by ar4me »

Jes: I just wanted to make sure, even though sensors aren't as expensive these days it's still very unnecessary to break one.
Anything to keep the cost down - just ask my wife :wink: Thanks for the reminder.

Jes
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Post by Zamani »

IMHO, once you get it tuned, keep all the WB stuff in the closet. Hookup the cheaper NB to the ECU. I have a few NB sensors for cheap.
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Post by junglejustice »

Just to answer some older questions/issues (probably a done issue by now), but any way;

Mats, correct you are - I know that on the Innovate Motorsports LM1 wideband lambda sensors for example, you kill the O2 if you run the car before it is warmed up and ready to go! Dunno about OEM O2s...? (Jes, you and I have probably killed our existing OEM O2 sensors in the two street Verdes by now - running the cars without the sensors powered up...) So be it - mine needed replacement anyway.

In theory, if you were to use say an LM-1 full-time and had it hooked to the ignition and you get right in and start the car, two things would happen:
1) You would burn up the sensor real fast; and
2) You would get incorrect, un-calibrated readings. Their instructions SPECIFICALY state to first let it warm up in ambient, open air to reach operating temperature and calibrate itself, then insert in the exhaust and then start the car.

Never turn of the A/F meter while the car is running and the wide-band sensor is still in the exhaust!

In the second instance, if you were running autotune for example, the O2 would direct the ECU to make inaccurate changes. It's the sensors that still have to come a long way...

You get bad readings when you stick them in the exhaust before it warms up - the Gotch boys HAVE worked with the autotune and are not including connectivity for now.

Yeah Sam, it is nice to have all of those new connectors and new wiring with it... Mine was all cracked and brittle. Yes, you can put the wideband O2 sensor that comes with the Innovate for example in the exhaust tip with the extra exhaust clamp accessory (less accurate back there, but still), while your closed-loop permanent O2 is screwed in to the hole in the header closer up front where it would reside permanently.

In this scenario you would be getting readings on the Innovate air/fuel-ratio meter while the car is running in closed loop. Gotech would allow you to make changes during this time.

Also, GoTech is about to launch a new windows software upgrade that would bring all of the existing GoTechs out there compatible with the Innovates - direct communication - and this should also advance and simplify tuning...

The little dial is supposed to give you a -10% to +10% lean/rich range. I would be surprised if the Innovate did not read it. I hear it in the car's running/idle and smoothness on the dyno and Ross was driving behind me to the track the other day while I played with it - he could smell the car getting rich (following behind me....)
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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