Alfa Romeo ONLY please!
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Mats
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Post by Mats »

The 2l v6 turbo was available in the 916GTV too, probably the 166 as well

Terrible turbo installation and still has all the regular issues of the 12v v6.
Mats Strandberg
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Maurizio
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Post by Maurizio »

Banned.. ? ;-) Daily donky.. ==> BMW 325d Image
E36M3 (3.0) Ringtool :twisted: ==> definitely BANNED!

AR 75 TS Ringtool '90, AR Spider 2000 veloce '79
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Post by kterkkila »

What about 156 2.5 V6 24V heads on 164 2.0 V6 turbo bottom end? Would there be enough room for valves in 2.0 80mm bore compared to 2.5 88mm? If not, then there's need to shorten the stroke for few millimeters and bore the liners to suit heads. Receipt of ultimate 2-liter Alfa engine?
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MD
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Post by MD »

Forget the turbo stuff altogether. It's not something I am interested in at all for my application.

The questions I am trying to resolve is how to get more power with a naturally aspirated engine of 2 litre capacity.

Four possibilities so far:

1 75 8v TS-got one.
2 155 16v TS -how do you convert it to a rear wheel drive fitment?
3 164 12v 2L naturally aspirated-compression changes/cams
4 164 Block with 24v head from something as Kimmo says and convert specs to naturally aspirated.

The last option seems to be the most challenging but possibly with the best power output. The V6 has plenty going for it as we all know.

What do you think gang?
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fedezyl
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Post by fedezyl »

I'd got the 2.0 16v route...I imagine engine mounts and somehow adapting the bell housing via a plate to the engine.

Adapting the 2 liter V6 to NA application would mean fiddling around with the engine more than with the 16v, plus on the 16v you have TS...

Don't know, it just seems to me too much effort to adapt the 2L V6 to NA application for not so much to be gained.
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Barry
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Post by Barry »

Mike,The 20l 16v is not such an impressive option.Not reliable (bearing reliability) and expensive to modify ! We have a few running here in mostly 105`s but also a 116 gtv20l..

Now a little 20l v6 at 10 000 rpm..mmmm,now Im drooling !
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
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SydneyJules
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Post by SydneyJules »

Mike- why the NA route? A low boost turbo with good sizing will give great throttle response with more torque and HP without the need to have closely spaced gearing, because the torque will allow you to build pace with normal ratios- fuel setup won't be stupid, and low boost will mean less heat. Yeah intercooler is a pain, but for the $$$ you get much more.... and you're gonna need an engine management fix anyway....

Naturally aspirated? www.injectionperfection.com.au- quad throttles, port the head, pistons and cams. voila. Lighten what you can internally, compression = ability to make power at high rpm, or mild cams will give useable torque. Run the management on TPS vs RPM and with time spent on the tuning, it would be a sweeeeeet, crisp thing. WHat my engine needs a bit more of actually.

Remember the Beninca Targa GTV? oooh baby that donk....

I would say a 7k spend on an 8v TS could get you either engine on a budget.

Then there's GG's upcoming Eaton kit.

Or Barry's 2.0 V6 with supersonic rpm!?
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by SydneyJules »

BTW what sort of sump change is needed with the transverse 16v?
Fixing it bit by bit....
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MD
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Post by MD »

Baz-you're right on the hammer man !! No flies on you mate..

Jules thanks for all the set up info but here's the thing.

What I need the engine for is racing. This is the racing topic right?
Well, if I use a turbo, it puts me out of the class I want to race in so THAT's why I am not interested in any turbo set up at all.

Keeping the V6 naturally aspirated and at 2 litres leaves everything where it needs to be for the class. Now in my circumstance the class simply requires an Alfa engine of 2 litre capacity but makes no criteria about the number of cylinders. SOOOOOHHH, if the V6 will make more power than the 2 litre 8V TS, why the f*ck wouldn't I use ?? !!

Do you get the picture now Buddy?

..and as Kimmo illuded, sticking a 24v head on it and keep it naturally aspirated should yield maximum neddies, digme pigme? :D
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fedezyl
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Post by fedezyl »

Barry wrote:Mike,The 20l 16v is not such an impressive option.Not reliable (bearing reliability) and expensive to modify ! We have a few running here in mostly 105`s but also a 116 gtv20l..

Now a little 20l v6 at 10 000 rpm..mmmm,now Im drooling !

I've heard of such bearing failures before, yet again, my father has a 2.0 16v 146 that is going for 185.000km now, never been opened, never changed the dreaded cam phaser thingy and pulls like new. I guess using Motul synthetic oil and oil changes at 5000km is paying off. Don't know about racing applications though.
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Post by kterkkila »

I've been opened few 16V TS engines, and there seems to be two common reasons for failures. The reason no. 1. is the cam belt, which may break before changing interval. Looking under cam belt cover sometimes will help a lot.. No. 2. is that some of the engines use to drink some oil and users don't bother to check it and fill it up, which causes bearing problems.. Conrod bearings go first and mains follow soon after. These were road engines, so racing engines may have other problems.
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SydneyJules
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Post by SydneyJules »

Ahh I didn't realise it was a class issue keeping you NA- Then V6 all the way!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Mats
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Post by Mats »

Barry wrote:Mike,The 20l 16v is not such an impressive option.Not reliable (bearing reliability) and expensive to modify ! We have a few running here in mostly 105`s but also a 116 gtv20l..

Now a little 20l v6 at 10 000 rpm..mmmm,now Im drooling !
Agree on the new 16v issues. What's the problem with taking a Lampredi 16v? It was fitted in the 155Q4 so it can pass as an Alfa engine. :wink:

10 000rpm 12v engine? sounds like someone likes changing heads. Those exhaust push-rod guides are a very weak link in the valvetrain.

PErsonally I'd build a 8v TS, lot of bang per buck and there are loads of stuff available. You also need lees customization and that is a good thing.
Can also be made very light!
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-

GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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MD
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Post by MD »

Lampredi 16v
Mats, would you care to elaborate on this engine. I know nothing about it other than some link to Lancia..
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kterkkila
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Post by kterkkila »

Those problems really doesn't mean that they're bad on racing, not at all. You'll check oils all the time and the cam belt doesn't need to last 60 000km. Now I recall conversation with a guy who was racing 2.0TS 16 on 156. He got got 220hp at 7200rpm in Sport 2000, because there was some restricting rules on intake system and example CR was limited to max 11:1.

There also seems to be some complete engines for sale, advertised as 265hp mill.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisti ... view=17378
That's super 2000 class and there's some more freedom to modify the engine.

This car is advertised to have 285hp.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisti ... view=17846

I think there's potential on that engine.

I guess Barry was thinking 2.0 V6 with 24V heads on that 10k rpm comment. I factory level builder should be able to take 400hp out of that engine with insane revs, so could we think something around 260-300hp @ 10k-11k, depending on building capablities?
Kimmo / alfatune.fi
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