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Maurizio · Post by **Maurizio** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:42 am

I kinda missed this thread....

MD wrote: I think tying into the big end mounts may be some advantage. Otherwise seems ok to me.

the stated: Our windage tray bolts to the main bearing studs and sandwiches between block and oil pan. This adds great rigidity to the main bearing caps.

A folded plate can't add rigidity. Is only rigid in the direction the fold runs, so only gain will be in axial direction, so why bother.
The Mike Valant version is for a nord and won't fit a ts bottom end.
TS is slightly different in dimensions.
I need to dig.... but I have converted the Valant version on paper to a ts version, never proto build it though.

kterkkila · Post by **kterkkila** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:55 pm

Here's some new dyno results to see. Results are comparable only to each others, as always when measured on chassis dyno.
http://jakita.com/pics/Tehokuva-08b.jpg
Differences between "Virialfa 04" and "Virialfa 08" are on pistons and cams. Those JE pistons were discussed earlier in this topic. Note that the engine have stock intake system with all restrictive parts included and also the stock exhaust headers. That's why we're not talking around 200hp numbers.. Exhaust pipe and mufflers after 2-1 collector have been changed. Highest number on dyno session were 166hp and there's still potential of few ponies hidden.

MD · Post by MD » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:56 am

Kimmo,

Just had a longer look at your power curves. I don't know exactly what you want to use this engine for although I have a pretty good idea. My comment is that the peak power has a very narrow band of perhaps 1500 rpm which you would loose in one gear change....if you could aim for a greater spread, say,3000 rpm, that power would be much more useful don't you think ?

Maurizio,

Hope you are wrong buddy cause I got one winging its way to the land of OZ. Can't see that Alfa would make the bottom end that different. After all, the timing chain cover is the same, the cranshafts are different but they fit the same, the Alfetta sump fits the same. So in the end we shall see...thanks for the heads up anyway.

Micke · Post by **Micke** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:32 am

Don't worry Mighty Duck. It's the same. It does not fit the 164 block 100% but it would work even on that.

kterkkila · Post by **kterkkila** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:10 am

It isn't as peaky as it might look with that scaling. Here's another graph where the power axis starts from zero. http://jakita.com/pics/Tehokuva-08c.jpg
Max torque comes at around 4700rpm where most of the pulls were actually started. Most important rev range is 5000-7000, but it's good to have some go also under 4500rpm. If I could change the headers, I would try to tune them to peak at 5500-6000rpm, but unfortunately the rules doesn't allow that..

Gas pedal was lifted around 6800rpm, so that's not natural drop of the engine. The lose on torque over -04 engine is due to later ignition, because 04 engine got piston failure by knocking.. I may advance it later.

MD · Post by MD » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:39 am

Thank you FINLAND !!!! Best of luck with the engine Kimmo.

Maurizio. Here's my tip: Don't hang out your Christams stocking on the mantle piece this year 'cause you're getting stuff all for worrying my nuts off..

On a less stupid note, who knows anything about the 164 2 litre engine. Is it a V6? What are its characteristics? Good, bad, and the ugly.

fedezyl · Post by **fedezyl** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:08 am

MD wrote:Thank you FINLAND !!!! Best of luck with the engine Kimmo.

Maurizio. Here's my tip: Don't hang out your Christams stocking on the mantle piece this year 'cause you're getting stuff all for worrying my nuts off..

On a less stupid note, who knows anything about the 164 2 litre engine. Is it a V6? What are its characteristics? Good, bad, and the ugly.

As far as I know, apart from the TS 2 liter engine that came on the 164 as well, the other one is a 2 liter V6 turbo, I think on the 2 liter turbo the crankshaft is different but I know very little of this engine apart from it's basi characteristics..

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:48 am

Looking at the graphs there are a few things to note

1. The modified engines are not graphed below 4500
2. The modified engines are more powerful then the stock one in the whole usable rev range (above 4500rpm).

Looks good to me!

So what changes on the Alfetta-75-TS-164TS engines in the sump? Dipstick? Oil level sender? Mech fuel pump? Oil pump pickup?

fedezyl · Post by **fedezyl** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:00 am

Mats wrote:Looking at the graphs there are a few things to note

1. The modified engines are not graphed below 4500
2. The modified engines are more powerful then the stock one in the whole usable rev range (above 4500rpm).

Looks good to me!

So what changes on the Alfetta-75-TS-164TS engines in the sump? Dipstick? Oil level sender? Mech fuel pump? Oil pump pickup?

I imagine that the changes between the Alfetta/75 sump are that, the sump and probably oil pump or oil pump pick up, same as the changes between the 164 V6 and 75 V6 sump.

I saw a 155 TS engine about a month ago totally dismantelled and as far as I saw from a quick view the only different thing was the sump, block, pistons etc was the same.

fedezyl · Post by **fedezyl** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:00 am

Mats wrote:Looking at the graphs there are a few things to note

1. The modified engines are not graphed below 4500
2. The modified engines are more powerful then the stock one in the whole usable rev range (above 4500rpm).

Looks good to me!

So what changes on the Alfetta-75-TS-164TS engines in the sump? Dipstick? Oil level sender? Mech fuel pump? Oil pump pickup?

I imagine that the changes between the Alfetta/75 sump are that, the sump and probably oil pump or oil pump pick up, same as the changes between the 164 V6 and 75 V6 sump.

I saw a 155 TS engine about a month ago totally dismantelled and as far as I saw from a quick view the only different thing was the sump, block, pistons etc was the same.

Maurizio · Post by **Maurizio** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:19 pm

Maurizio. Here's my tip: Don't hang out your Christmas stocking on the mantle piece this year 'cause you're getting stuff all for worrying my nuts off..

the difference is not that dramatic. You will find some holes you have to widen a bit. And some slots which are not in line with the crank counter weights. But hey I'm referring to the drawing of Mike Valant. I haven't had a spruell's in my hands....

BTW: the 164 turbo 2 l is a V6, so I can imagine the crank and sump are different to the 4 banger ts

On a side note: I always wanted to know what the real differences of 164 ts are, need to get my hands on one. The 75 TS engines are wanted around here and 164 engines are more available. The 164 has its engine in a left to right arrangement in the engine bay, as it is fwd. But something is telling me that the 164 engine is not that different and with some exchanging of parts it must be possible to fit this engine in a transaxle. A 155 engine is a lot more different, but the head fits a 75 ts.

From paper I know that 155 2l 8v pistons, crank, con rods are different, the cylinders are the same as a 75.

MD · Post by MD » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:22 pm

Maurizio. All is well. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to land one on ya, hahaa.

So the 2l V6, got any specs on it? Do they come naturally aspirated? Could one be shoe-horned into a 75? Can you see where I am going with this ?

Feel free to chime in if anybody has any info. We don't get these engines in Oz so I am totally in the dark about them.

BTW:

A 155 engine is a lot more different, but the head fits a 75 ts.

Is this a 16v head? Are you saying that a 16v TS head will fit an 8V TS block?

fedezyl · Post by **fedezyl** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:31 am

MD wrote:Maurizio. All is well. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to land one on ya, hahaa.

So the 2l V6, got any specs on it? Do they come naturally aspirated? Could one be shoe-horned into a 75? Can you see where I am going with this ?

Feel free to chime in if anybody has any info. We don't get these engines in Oz so I am totally in the dark about them.

BTW:
A 155 engine is a lot more different, but the head fits a 75 ts.
Is this a 16v head? Are you saying that a 16v TS head will fit an 8V TS block?

As far as I know the 164 2l V6 doesn't come in NA form, and for the 155 ts, it's just the 8v, the 16v is a fiat derived engine, different block and pretty much everything. As always, anything can be made to fit, it's just not as bolt on as a 8v TS engine would be.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:51 am

The first year the 164 2l turbo had a Fiat Croma turbo engine with an Alfa valve cover...

There are quite a lot of changes between the 155 TS and the 75 TS, I think there is a thread somewhere where a lot more then the above mentined are listed. Shorter block and the head are a few obvious things as well as not having any distributors.

Maurizio · Post by **Maurizio** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:04 am

Is this a 16v head? Are you saying that a 16v TS head will fit an 8V TS block?

Nope a 155 8v head fits the 75 TS.

A 16v..... well with a budget and time everything is possible. There was a 105 gt(v) racer with a 155 16v engine conversion in the dutch alfa trofeo, haven't seen the car in a long time..., was a serious beauty. So it can be done

The 164 v6 turbo's are rare and not the most reliable cars from word (no live experience).
There is a converted alfetta racer for sale in Germany.http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?id=je2dpsuefqg