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4SFED4
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Post by 4SFED4 »

John,

May all of your deepest desires be satisfied! :)

Andrew,

A dear friend of mine and one of your compatriots, introduced me to a little English culture and a lot of wisdom, plus he was the best drinking friend I ever had! A dirty bastard and quite smooth with the ladies... what a spell his Brittish accent casted over the American double-breasted dorm nester... but I digress. The song went something like this... The Mayor of Bayswater he had a pretty daughter... (To maintain this boards "PG" rating I will assume you know the rest of the song!) I always liked the part... one red one, one white one and one with a bit of shite on and one with a fairy light on to show you the way... lol

The bit of wisdom had something to do with wrestling with a pig... and everybody getting dirty and the pig enjoying it! I laughed at first because of the mental image it conjured in my head and also because Simon was just damn funny. As years went on I began to see the wisdom he shared with me and I have never forgot how much fun we had!

Oh... I also remember this joke... Did you hear about the Irish tap dancer?

He fell off! lol

-Brian
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Post by MerrilGordon »

Keep in mind too that really large rotors increase unsprung mass and rotating inirtia. May look good behind 17" or 18" wheels but all that weight adds up.
I hear stock Brembo GTV6/Milano calipers are heavy. I imagine good 4-pot calipers are lighter, I wonder how 6-pot calipers compare weight wise.

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Post by Zamani »

JJ,

My honest opinon, for your car 300mm and 4 pot calipers will be plenty. The reason I say that is because since your car isn't going to be a full out race car (but more like a club racer right?) the said setup is more than adequate. Yes 6 pots are better than 4, and 8 are better than 6. Better yet, 8 pot differential bore is EVEN better. But why bother? Seriously, I think 4 standard bore is plenty and more gains can be had from adjusting brake bias.

In fact I would even go further and say that for a sub 250 bhp car, maybe a 280mm + 4 pot setup is more than adequate.

I guess once you can start going around Laguna Seca below 1:45, then maybe 6 pots and 330mm brakes become a neccessity.


Merril,

My Wilwoods weigh 2 lbs each. They're LIGHT! More importantly is not to put oversized rotors, you LOSE power for no reason. I wish I had chosen 280mm rotors and extended spindles for 15" wheels. That way for the track I could go with 225/50/15 tires and super light 15" wheels (13.2 lbs). Let me tell you, 225/50/16 due to its size and weight really blunts acceleration.
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Post by MerrilGordon »

Zamani !

Your first hand experience is good to hear. For those in the know, that can be something of an edge at track days.

I'm sure JJ can just out power any brake setup he wishes to choose, but a 3.7L Alfa will be quite rare in the states so he'll be running with much more powerful cars (sucking the doors of Vipers, Corvetts, and Porsches). The rest of us will be looking for optimal setups given the limitations we'll be facing.

And I'll copy from my notes an earlier posting you quoted for those who may have missed it:

"From a racing book I have read, it states that weight should be reduced in the following order of preference, weight spinning at engine speed, weight spinning at wheel speed, and finally static weight (preferrably the unsprung part)."

I think I'll make a note that 280mm rotors is a good choice to make if one wants to retain 15" wheels.

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Post by Andrew.b »

JJ

So much for you lightening up - If I offended you I am truly sorry.

I was merely replying to Zamani's post, and pointing out one can have too much brake for a particular application, especially if the car is on road tyres! Thats all.

"The rest of us would then be left to just cower in darkness because we don't own a Roush car or a former Glenwood car that we scavenged off of Julian B....."

It's sad to see you get so offensive also.

Cheers
Andrew b
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I'm done.

Post by junglejustice »

Andrew; Curious....
Did anybody give BARRY this much crap for putting 6-pots/8-pots on all those cars that he posted here? NO! Why me? NOBODY here posted to tell Barry what an idiot he was and that he was "chasing his own tail and not knowing how to catch it...." Only: "Barry, that's fantastic!" "Wow!" "Great Baz!" "More-more!"

Those aren't even "only" club/track cars! I just mention that I am putting 8-pots on a 350 horsepower car and all hell breaks loose! Bit biased there... NO?

I tell you Andrew. It's done. I can’t handle this type of shit. Please just stop, OK?

Look how nicely Zamani and MerrilGordon and GregGordon and Jes and Jef and some of the others respond to my posts EVEN if they disagree with the direction for my car.... (Don't know why not one of you criticized Barry's decisions, but I get shit for it... any way....)

Please. Take a hint man. I am not the enemy. At the same time, its hard to keep it friendly when every single post that you make in response to my posts, either cuts me down personally, or criticizes my choices for my car! (But it's great if Barry does it!)

It’s like I am not worthy of anything as good as your "race setups" UNLESS I concede here and now that the goal is a "TRUEEEE" race car… or that I am not a good enough driver! Who cares if Jes wants a tracable street car and I want a streetable track car?

Who cares? I mean really. If I want to take a GTR1 racer straight off of the track, put indicators on it and drive it as a street car, who cares? I never said that YOU had to do it.

End it now. OK? Please? Pretty please? You are the coolest man. You have the most awesome cars of all here. Done. Barry can have 8-pots and I can't without scorn. I get it.

Barry and I have even made peace too. He has even asked for my help on some turbo 4 pistons, MSDs and a few other things from over here, so we should end it now too.

As a side note; I don’t remember ever stating that this was not going to be a serious racer for me - just that I may want to drive it to and from the track sometimes and just that I won't be racing for points.

Also, I never said that I WON'T be running slicks (just pile them back there and swap out at the track.)

MerrilGrodon is right; I did set my goal to just keep up with Paul in our club (early Z06 with minor mods) as well as a few other 911 and NSX drivers. Don't care to beat them or go 10-10ths - just keep up. If I can take a few down a notch, then great!

We have grueling tracks State-side. Long slow up-hills, long straights - the longest straight in NA is near here in Spokane!!! (Followed by slow tight hairpins!!!) Hence the over-kill combination of power and brakes.

Brakes take a beating on those types of tracks (Laguna, Pacific Raceways etc...) I used-up a set of front Ferrodos in ONE day at Breberton!

Finally, thanks for the apology - accepted!

Peace my Alfa friend.
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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Post by MerrilGordon »

You know, after I posted my message then shut down and went to bed I couldn't keep thinking about brakes! (Go to sleep will ya!) . . . Anyway, for my application I need to go bigger, but probably only as big as necessary.

Here's the thought that kept me awake for a while; Maybe as big as necessary will work fine, but going one more additional size larger of calipers and rotors might mean drastically reduced maintenance. Like not having to change pads or bleed the brakes for a whole season!

My current stock setup requires I go easy on them at places like Pacific Raceway in order to have my rear (performance) pads last the day. What that also means is I have to change the rear pads and bleed the brake system right away to keep everything safe and functional for later use. That might be worth some speed performance loss for the less hassle trade-off.

What do you Alfisti think ? Am I all wet Zamani ?

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Post by Zamani »

Merril,

I was thinking of Nissan Maxima (circa 1995) rotors and wilwood DynaPro calipers (have dust seals) with either 1.38" pistons (if you have the 24mm MC) or 1.25" pistons if you have the stock MC. Pad selection isn't too great though. The calipers alone will run US$500.

Or you could go with 1994 ish RX-7 Twin Turbo calipers, more pad selection.

Or maybe a 6 pot Praggia from JJ? I'm not opposed to them, but if they cost a lot, then it is not neccessary.

Also remember that some GTV6s (older ones, not sure which year) had way more rear bias than the Milano. So maybe you wanna check on the brake distribution circuit of your car first.
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Ahhhh - Spokane!

Post by junglejustice »

Merril!

I see that you get it! I mean on these tracks... Spokane - just like Pacific Raceways - We have that SUPER long straight, ("turn 1" is a dog-leg so you stay on the throttle FULL out...) and then that hairpin coming in to "turn 2"... (YOU have the longest straight in NA!!!

I'm doing about 133-134 mp/h (210 to 215 kmp/h) getting on the brakes HARD for the hairpin! (SHORT braking zone after the dog-leg...) Then barely 300 yards to a downhill (very fast acceleration) and then again you are looking at a Laguna Seca-like down-hill cork-screw....

I would LOVE to not have to "maintain" the brakes after every track day either! Chris, Joe and a few others here in the local club get HUGE fade from their stock caliper w/upgraded rotor and pad set-ups too... Fluid's always boiling over... Bubbles...

Bremerton is ALL about brakes too with all the cones and crap...

My car is still 2900 pounds for the moment and I am 6'-4"/265 pounds, so who knows WHAT I will need! The 8-pots may be WAY over what I need, but better to have than to want... I can always practice better brake modulation, but how do I get out of a 1500-2000-2500 dollar total brake upgrade, once I decide that say, 4-pots are NOT ENOUGH for me!?

I can always re-sell my 8-pots UP to someone with an SUV who needs them more than I do, IF I ever find that I need to DOWNGRADE, but who is going to buy DOWN from me, if I find that 4-pots are NOT enough for the 350 horses and the V6 and HUGE-arsed driver....?

I have been thinking slicks too, so who knows what I can use for brakes? Barry and them report "FANTASTIC/AMAZING/SUPPERB" braking from 305mm/310mm/315mm brakes. I am "just" going with 325mm up front, so I can't believe that this all of a sudden will constitute HUGE, MASSIVE over-braking for me... (Over and above those here already reporting GREAT results from 310mm 4-pot Brembos....)

Zamani - Jes and I will BOTH have on-board bias controll....
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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Post by MerrilGordon »

My car definitely has the strong rear brake bias. So my first upgrade will be vented rotors and widened stock calipers at the rear. This should have been done by now but I ran into employment problems here in Spokane (and JJ, yes Spokane has a dandy track here). That has now been solved. So I think that’ll be the first upgrade. Better traction means more weight bias forward under braking so I think a brake bias control is in order as well. I’ll likely hold off a front brake upgrade till I’m settled in at my new location. But thanks for the info Zamani. My car is over due for this stuff.

Jeeze JJ, now you got me thinking about weight. Let’s see, I’m pretty sure the car’s 2900 lbs is a dry weight number, so add fourteen gallons of gas at 6 lb/g to give 84 lbs or so. Add your weight, or mine at 230 lbs, ok your weight so we’ve got approximately 3250 lbs. So it creeps up there. Of course with track days we often have a passenger which is lots of fun, so add my weight and you’re at about 3480 lbs. Now I know my brakes are quite inadequate!

Zamani, after this little mental drill do you think your brakes are still oversized? If I remember correctly you car may be lightenend some, and you might not be as heavy as JJ and I. Has your new brake system been low maintenance since you’ve upgraded them? Thanks in advance.

Although off topic some here, I’m glad you’ve driven Spokane Raceway Park JJ. A very fun track with a nice surface. And that straight is something else. For those not familiar, it has a typical dragstrip straight, but the lead up to it is a fairly swift corner and a straight stretch before you even reach the starting line for the drag cars. So by the time one gets to the start line the car is already going quite fast. Some serious speed can be had by those with the power, aerodynamics, and nerve. Certainly lots of nerve required to not lift for the dog leg if your car is maxed out.

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Post by Michael »

Hey Merril - hope to see you at PR for a few of the track days this year - the calendar is looking pretty good!

My strategy for brakes is underway. I had horrendous brake problems last year, once almost crashing into a desperately over-braking Beeemer when my brakes practically failed. So, I'm getting some custom disks and adapters for the Porsche 944 Turbo Brembo calipers I have on hand and am also installing the SZ vented rear disk setup with some ducts added for good measure. I had thought to go 'outboard' for the rear brakes, but I'd like to keep the Alfa design if possible. I was watching the "Victory By Design" DVD **again** (I got it for Christmas :D) and noticed an Alfa LeMans type car from the 80's which actually had the same type of inboard disks bolted onto a Hewland type Alfa Gearbox . Apparently Alfa solved the problems revolving around heating of the gearbox fluid/failing rear brakes etc and found the inboard location superior in this (rather excellent looking) racecar.

Anyway, should this also fail, I'll give up and move the brakes outboard like Alfa also did on some of their GTV6 track cars. I reckon this might be a fairly expensive proposition to have it properly engineered. I figure I could just get a set of rear 944 Turbo calipers (very similar to the front calipers) and maybe even use the master cylinder from that same car to essentially duplicate the 951's braking system (which works very well and allows a wide series of options in pad selection given their substantial track use).

Cheers,
Michael
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Post by Mats »

What kind of pad compounds are available for the Praggias?
Are the pads the same shape as any other mainstream racing calipers?
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Braking

Post by MD »

Michael,

If you proceed with the Porche brake conversion, could you please provide the full details of rotors, calipers, pad type and master cylinder bore size that you eventually wind up using. I am intensly interested in this combo as I just have a hunch it might be the pick of them. There are a lot of good brake combos out there but looking at any of the road going machinery specs always has Porche right there around the top so it makes a lot of sense, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.

What would be useful to know is a before and after range of braking stats. ie. set up the car with all its current components and carry out a braking deceleration test. I am talking about measuring by intrumentation. Using the same tyres, pressures,speeds etc and changing to the new braking system (once sorted) and do the same test. Provide some indication of the braking quality and distance improvements (if any) and by how much of an actual measured margin, does the car stop in a shorter distance.

This is a big ask. Going by a hunch is usefull but real facts speak for themselves. Will follow this item with a huge interest.

Smoke 'em if you gottem. (tyres of course)

MD
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Post by MerrilGordon »

Hi Michael,

I look forward to some visits to Pacific Raceway (maybe Bremerton too) this year. Last year was a track drought for me do to work issues. What with the convention in Seattle, I've got to get some seat time in. And a few car upgrades as well. If I can get three or so track days in before the convention, that should drop a fair amount of time off my lap times at PR. Don't want to be embarrased by some out of towner running a mild car and showing me how it's done!

Your brake upgrade sounds interesting. That should improve your situation drastically. One issue I wonder about is front rotor diameter. If one wants to run 15" wheels, that keeps a check on size. Zamani said 280mm would work for that. I like 16" wheels, but having the flexibility to go back to 15" can be nice in certain applications (racetrack, winter/rain tires).

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Post by Zamani »

Merril,

For me it is a money issue. I can't afford to go hog wild on power upgrades, rims and tires. So if I were to get big brakes, which means big wheels, my tire choices (especially for the track) is severely limited. Go to tirerack and check out the available 16" tires for the track which will fit our cars. Very limited.

Next step is 17", more sizes (205/40/17, 225/45/17, 235/40/17) but $$$. Not only that, it saps power too. May as well use 15". You can use 225/50/15 and lose less power to the wheels, no clearence issues, lower price, and lower effective gearing too.

Jim K managed to fit 300mm rotors and Brembos from the GTV V6 24V or 156 GTA with his Compomotive setup. Could be wheel design dependent too. Some 15" wheel may not be able to accomodate the 300mm rotor setup. 280ish mm sounds about right.

I wish they had 225/40/16 track tires. I know they have it in Japan, but importation costs would be too high.
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