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[zambon]

My verde has all of the usual antilock brake related problems, or at least many of them. I would like to get rid of the ABS. What are my options? How much bread do I have to cough up to make the change? I am willing to go to an aftermarket system if it is advantagous(sp?).

[SamW]

Best to go to standard milano braking, maybe be cheaper to buy a parts donor milano, you need the brake pedal assembly, I used the brake lines and the little vacuum nipple on the intake to hook up the brake booster. The job is a PITA, but it can be done, actually easier if you pull the steering column out.

[P.Webb]

Don't discount fixing the ABS system you have now. Depending on the issues, there are some much cheaper GM parts that resolve many of the problems.

ABS is a good thing. If it wasn't almost every modern car wouldn't have it and F1 wouldn't have banned it.

The Teves system is old I admit. Still better than conventional brakes for a street car. I like it for the track but others don't. I can make a logical argument for track use but that would just muddy the waters.

So what kind of ABS issues are you having?

=Peter

[SamW]

And if you need parts, I have some in known and unknown condition (two complete ABS systems I am not using), and I will be reasonable as far as cost, you won't pay for something that doesn't work...

[zambon]

I have a bad accumulator and I am not sure how far the problem goes from there. I just bought this milano and I am not sure how long the previous owner neglected this electropump. I fear that it has been neglected for a very long time as the pump runs immediately upon even touching the brake pedal. It is possible that this is my main problem. I am guessing that the sensors have issues as well since many of the rubber items (hoses and wire insulators) seem very dry with much cracking.
I am not entirely opposed to keeping the anti-lock, on my other verde project I intend to restore the ABS. For this one, however, I have been dreaming of removing unnecessary gadgets from the engine compartment. I mean AC, ABS, and perhaps even power steering (like the Greg´s father´s Verde).
I dont know which will be more cost prohibitive, fixing the ABS (repeatedly?), or biting down hard and getting manual brakes.

[MD]

Upfront. Two things you don't need on an Alfa.

1 Power steering unless you got chicken wings for arms and if you dont have chicken wings, you soon will get them with power steering. Power steering is just a pandering to women who can't park cars. Forget it and save some horsepower.

2 ABS. For goodness sake, Alfa had racing cars topping 300Kph in the twenties & thirties on drum brakes. ABS,it's just a needless fashion.

My car has neither and it works just fine and has for 22years .

Hack and slash I say.(But get some advice on how to go about it the right way of course).

[P.Webb]

You can get a new accumulator for a GM car for about $100. That's probably most of the problem. If the pump runs constantly.

Go to www.gmpartsdirect.com and search on part # 25528382. It's for a Buick Reatta but it's a direct replacement. In fact, it's the same part.

Start there and see how the brakes go. You don't need to bleed after an accumulator change but changing all the fluid would be a good step (after you change the accumulator).

To change the accumulator. With the key off, pump the brake pedal 20-30 times to get rid of any residual pressure. Use some 4" channel locks to turn the old one off. The hex nut on top will just strip out. Strap wrenches don't work either. Screw the new accumulator on tight and turn on the key. The orange light will take a few minutes to go out. Pump on the brakes until you hear the pump come one. You should get 5-10 pumps before the pump runs. If that's the case, you've solved that one. The pump will last a lot longer with a good accumulator.

Bleed the fronts like regular brakes until you see clean fluid coming out. For the rears, turn on the key. Raise the back of the car and wait until the ABS orange light goes off. Slightly depress the brake pedal with a stick or a helper then open the rear caliper bleed screws one at a time (there are 4) until clean fluid comes out.

[zambon]

Thanks for the great suggestions. I will post again when I have somthing to report.

[ar4me]

I'm with Peter on the value of the Verde ABS. Mine had similar symptoms in 2000 - every single touch of the pedal would trigger the pump - supposed to have no more than every 3rd time, I think. And, with abrupt application of the brake pedal the orange light would come on momentarily. Anyway, I replaced the gizmo in engine bay with a new, and it has worked flawlessly since, AND does provide anti-lock function properly.

Jes

[zambon]

i have an update on my project. I have purchased a set of components for a conversion to manual brakes. I have a used pedal box and pump, plus new brake and clutch master cylenders, I have also purchased braided lines. sorry about the spelling.
Although I have tremendous respect for the knowledge of the experts on this board, I have chosen the manual system for the following reason: simplicity.
Although antilock may be technically superior in many ways, I want my car to be as technically simple as possible.
I plan on keeping the abs components as spares for my fathers car which is completely stock.
I will take pictures and provide a description of the conversion process. Thanks to everyone who has given me advice on the board.

[Mats]

Upfront. Two things you don't need on an Alfa.

1 Power steering unless you got chicken wings for arms and if you dont have chicken wings, you soon will get them with power steering. Power steering is just a pandering to women who can't park cars. Forget it and save some horsepower.

Do you need all that horsepower when you're turning the wheel? Probably not.
It's all down to the application, try driving a high power car with wide tires and "grippy angles" for more then two laps of a twisty track and I bet you will be screaming for PS.
For the record, almost all modern race cars have PS, WRC to DTM to F1. I don't miss PS on my race car even with the 2.1 rack or on my streetcar but as I said, the application is the main thing to look at. As for the comment about women, grow up!

2 ABS. For goodness sake, Alfa had racing cars topping 300Kph in the twenties & thirties on drum brakes. ABS,it's just a needless fashion.

My car has neither and it works just fine and has for 22years .

Hack and slash I say.(But get some advice on how to go about it the right way of course).

For a dry track the ABS is complete crap on almost all cars, Porsche have a nice system capable of handling the huge grip available with race rubber but that's about it. Wet race, give me ABS please...
Road? ABS!
The only disadvantage with ABS on the road is that you can't lock up the wheels to force a spin but how often do you need that on the road?

[MD]

Mats

I respect your entitlement and that of others using this forum to express whatever opinion they have that may agree or disagree with me.

I have gone out of my way not to publically denigrate any contibution made to this site as it serves no public purpose- no matter how much I personnally may be opposed to what has been said.

I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.

I do however invite you to email me direct and say whatever is on your mind if there are differences that we should be debating in private.

Thank you.

[joey]

As for the comment about women, grow up!

we're aussies, and we reserve the right to never have to do that.

For a dry track the ABS is complete crap on almost all cars, Porsche have a nice system capable of handling the huge grip available with race rubber but that's about it.
Wet race, give me ABS please...
Road? ABS!
The only disadvantage with ABS on the road is that you can't lock up the wheels to force a spin but how often do you need that on the road?

well what i will say about the ABS is this... there are studies here and around the world that suggest ABS has done nothing to reduce the servity of accidents which is the no.1 concern in road applications for street cars. In fact, factors suggest people unfamilar with how they work may rely on them too much...

what does this mean for our community? not much i would hazard. I think most here have "practiced" on heavy braking technique and know how it works... but then again, anyone thats heavily into alfas know how to simulate ABS anyway.. sure as you say, it has it's applications, but driver skill and awareness is what avoids accidents, in this case why do you need ABS? for the road at the legal limit or below i mean. It probably has race applications in preventing bald spotting expensive rubber, but we dont need it, and the alfa's surely isn't the best... with expensive repairs why bother?

[Mats]

MD: I'm sorry if it sounded like I attacked you or anything, that was truly NOT my intention.
I apologize. (Not for standing up for women though )

I just used your opinions on PS and ABS as a base for my arguments, notice how I don't have PS on my cars. I'm just stating that PS is nessesary on some cars and therefore we can't just say it's wrong.

ABS on roads, well, I welcome you two Aussies to visit here during the winter and we will see how you feel about it afterwards, ok?
ABS is the only way you can fully use the traction available since it will continually ajust individual brake pressure for the four wheels (something I find a bit difficult with just the single pedal).
Most production road vehicles are not tuned for racing though and is therefore not usable on the track. Example, if you brake HARD at the top of a crest the ABS will take some time to adjust the brake pressure back up after "landing", this can be very scary and is hardly safe or fast. Typically most systems has difficulties adjusting to the high grip levels with racing tires, it's just not inside it's "map" and it will not brake enough.
A system developed for racing is very fast with a much higher sampling frequency and mapped for high grip levels and fast transitions in brake pressure, will probably kick 99% of any racing drivers ass.

[MD]

Mats

Apology accepted without reservation.

I am happy to see that you have also got right back on track with the technical debate which this forums is for. ..and yes, I do agree that there are "horses for courses" .

Notwithstanding I keep this engineering funadamental in mind, "the fewer the moving parts, the greater the reliability". I base my preference on these principles.

Happy to move on..