ALFAGTV6.COM

[joey]

Hi guys,

I have a question for the ppl running aftermarket solutions or other oem alternatives for both the brake booster and Master Cylinder.

question 1) what is the list of Boosters that will easily work ("bolt on" to) the gtv6? is the 2.0 alfetta BB an easy retrofit? what would the difference in effort be? anyone tried this? I think some people use the 164 booster, is this freely available new? how much? the old 2.0 units are available new fairly cheaply AFAIK.

question 2) what aftermarket master cylinders are people using? size, and how much? do they bolt straight onto the stock booster or alternatives? are these all stepped MC's or can you actually use a single MC and fit some sort of bias valve after to control both front and rear? anyone using a dual set up?

question 3) anyone tried no Brake Booster at all? i know mats has 1 car without, but its a racer, is it practical for the street? this should give more feedback and less likelyhood of unintentionally locking the brakes right?


cheers,

joe

Wilwood? no clue. Do they have the type of dual MCs we need (or do you need twins and a balance bar)?

ahh, sorry i thought you were running wilwood... my bad what are you running? stock mc? brakes?

yes, they have stepped, and you can fit a dual set up, this seems to be what racers prefer AFAIK...

[MD]

joey

My contribution to your questions is limited to this.

I run the standard GTV6 callipers but use the original GTV2.0 master cylinder and ATE booster. The perfomance of the brakes is almost identical to the previous 2.0 litre set up in street application. Front to rear balance remains unchanged.

The second part of your question relating to boost/no boost. If you want to experience what this difference is for yourself, try removing the vacuum hose off the booster vacuum servo and plug it so your manifold operates nomally. Make sure you allow yourself lots of room to pull up because you will be in for a huge pedal pressure change. Not for street use I don't think unless you had drum brakes in the rear. ie. Datsun 1600- hardly taking an Alfa forward in development me thinks.

Anyhow, my two cents worth.

[Mats]

Stock MC, OEM Alfa 75 Brembos + discs, stock rear, removed pressure regulator and installed a Wilwood adjustable valve for the rear.

Difference in feel when removing the booster is that you need to stomp the brakes harder but I think the feeling is more linear and easier to modulate on the limit. Definetly less touchy when heel-toeing (which is a big plus on the track).
but, since you press the pedal harder the firewall will flex more and thes will initially feel a little weird but doesn't matter for modulating.

This is not something I would do for a streetcar though. Hard pads that need a little heat for proper bite plus no BB would give you a silly walk because of your huge right leg.

[joey]

MD, aha ! so you are running the 2.0 brake booster? excellent, thats one question down..

2.0 mc as well huh? well thats still the same ol' dual circuit in'nt... well thats ok.. now i wanna know if anyone has deleted this option with stock calipers with some inventive plumbing...

or have simply substituted the wilwood tandem MC in its place.

for some reason i'm keen to kill the stock MC, even if its the last thing i doooo !!!

Mats,

cheers for the info... yes... the booster issue is a good one, sure they ran drums in the rear, but plenty of heavy american cars went around without "power brakes" grr, hate that term.

i think i will have to test it out myself as MD said and disconnect it, i'm not too worried about the ol' leg muscle. Frmr rower and soccer player here... still routinely hit the press with >300lbs.

As a certain aussie said, "i'm no woman".

anyway, as i alluded to earlier, deleting it is not my aim, simply an alternative / wanting to know how a smaller booster would cope. It seems its fine in MD's case.. thats def good news... would you know the primary / secondary sizes for the 2.0?

in'nt 22/19mm for the gtv6? same for the 2.0?

cheers for that guys,

joe

[MD]

joey

IF you want to experiment with some fine tuning on boost and pedal travel, I would suggest a 25 mm MC and the 2.0 ATE servo. From memory (dare I say it) an early Nissan Patrol MC is about the right one. Sacrelidge I know. Just don't tell anyone you got the tip from me !!

[joey]

cheers, is that a single MC or tandem? i've been looking around, i cant find much info on it.

what is everyone else using? i bet there are some interesting set ups around..

[matt]

Here's a page that may be of interest on the master cylinder side of things:
http://e30m3performance.com/installs/in ... c/25mc.htm
It shows some larger ATE master cylinders used on some BMWs with M3 23mm mastercylinder upgraded to a 750i V12! 25mm one with improvement in feel and less pedal travel
I believe all 116 master cylinders 's are 22mm
These larger ate master cylinders look very similar to 116 one in terms of mounting to brake booster servo and reservoir orientation might have to go to the wreckers and investigate further.

[Barry]

Joey,BMW e30 BB is a direct bolt on.So is thr e34 525 BB.VW Jettais another bolt on(late model)So is new Fiat Palio .
The best one is the BMW e30.Master cyl. again,BMW E30 and VW.There are plenty others to use as well..Some Mercedes BB and M/cyl as well-used this in the 3.8l 24v blue car.

Barry

[joey]

thanks matt and baz, nice info there !

ok, i've got two possibilities now, a new 2.0 ATE booster or the E30 BM unit.. cool.

i checked out the pricing, and while its certainly better than the v6 unit, its still more than the 2.0 (c.280 vs 170)

do you grab em from the junk yard baz? do rebuild kits exist for it?


Thanks guys for the MC info as well, yep a bigger MC is what i suspected would help, and i was shooting around 1".

So i consider the BB question taken care of, thanks !

the last thing i wanna know is does anyone have the wilwood MC's? do they bolt straight up? They are far more easily had (and cheaper) new for me, and well.. ok, they're pretty.

USD200 for a MC?

Cheers,

joe

[MD]

joey

If you pick up a BMW or Merc. master cylinder from the wreckers unless they have been sitting around for a long time, they are likely to be ok. Nevertheless, you would be wise to rekit it anyway. So job 1 is to find out if the kits are available and for what bucks?
Before rekitting, you may want to stainless or brass sleeve the bore to be certain it is clean and pit free. Being a 25mm bore, the sleeves should be on any back shelf.

[joey]

absolutely, as you can see with the BB i'm keen to get new or rebuilt.

As for MC i'm not so sure its worth it. Being bimmer/merc kit, its likely to be expensive, its USD200 new. If you buy second hand, then u gotta rebuild it, but judging by the stock gtv6 item it will hardly worth it.

The rebuild kit at IAP costs $64 !!, the MC new is $90, so really not worthwhile. Even if the bimmer thing is cheaper to rebuild you gotta buy it, in any case A BRAND NEW Wilwood 1" tandem MC with nice new blacked resevoirs is $100.

Hence, i really wanna know if i can bolt these right up.. someone must have tried...

The bimmer's certainly look a correct fit, but the WW are s'posed to be universal, and if they dont fit the alfa, they prolly would older e30/e36 bimmers.. i'm hoping...

[Barry]

Joey,Life is not simple all the time.......Machine up an adaptor for a different m/c if neccessary.Just keep in mind that it is the braking system your messing with and do it super proper.....Yes,I get my boosters from the breakers....cheap(R224.00)50aud.I dont rekit them as its not worth it.If they dont work(wich is very seldom)I have an arrangement to swop them for others.....

My m.c on the Giulietta is off an Isuzu kb bakkie(ute.)This had very wide ,4 bolt pattern on extented "ears" Isimply trimmed everything down to make the Alfa mounting flange from the original bigger Isuzu flange..You got to work smart here.Ozz...And its 25mmbore.Now I did not resleeve or re kit the thing as it came out of a 2004 model....Its still brand new.Ive subsequently bought another two 2005 m/c for stock..Keep it filled with b/fluid,fit plugs and store.......

[MD]

Practical as ever Baz. Not sure if that's a model we get in Oz but the principle is the same joey as I am sure you are astute enough to lock onto.

With all this stuff about upgrading brakes, it would be nice if we could come up with a decelleration meter that could actually measure any real gain in braking power from one system over another. Like, do a before and after test.

Dreamin again...

[joey]

Hrmm, well, speaking for myself thats not my aim at all.

Well certainly not braking distance, as i quite like the stock brakes and think tyres are far more important in the road application.

I'm chasing this route as it seems to me, particularily in OZ, that it seems uneconomical to refresh the stock brakes (along with new rotors, pads etc) and have to rebuild everything, when new quailty substitute parts are freely available and only slightly deerer in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, i am quite pedantic i s'pose, but this is part of a full resto/mod project.

[Jim K]

Decel. meter, you say? Hmmmm, looks like us old geezers will likely be the first ones to get them, when we...install false teeth When you can brake hard enough to have them fall out, at least you have a measuring standard, hahah!
Only trying to be practical, MD!
Jim K.