ALFAGTV6.COM

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:54 am

A badly designed charge cooler system will go into thermal runaway..
A properly designed one will always cool the charge.

Rule of thumb is that the same piece of water does not see the charge cooler during a 30 second continuous boost situation...By the end of 30seconds you should be close to 400mp/h!!

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:09 am

I agree with Barry, if the system capacity is ok you shouldn't have a problem. I think this buisness about liquid to air systems having a limited time of use stems from the people who set them up with some sort of super cooling like running the coolant through a tub of ice water. Then you do have a limited amount of cooling. Of course the whole point of those set ups is to have super performance for a short period of time.

5yearplan · Post by **5yearplan** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:36 pm

Ok, so as long as you have a big enough holding tank so the same water doesn't circulate more than once in the given time period. The air to air intercooler seems like less hassle. No water pump or tank, weight of the water, etc...

zambon · Post by **zambon** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:39 pm

Dont forget the hastle of extra complex intake plumbing for the air to air. Water to air can in many cases allow you to run significantly shorter intake plumbing. The reason for this is that you can put the water to air intercooler anywhere it will fit.
For the air to air, you must mount it on the grille and run the intake plumbing through it. The other option would be to feed the air to air intercooler through a hood scoop, which would be far more complicated since you would need to engineer the scoop to have proper pressure differential.

5yearplan · Post by **5yearplan** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:46 pm

point well taken

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:58 pm

It's really sort of a toss up. They both have advantages and drawbacks regarding performance and installation. I prefer the liquid to air units because I hate drilling holes in the car and you don't need to do much to make it fit.

As far as my supercharger kit goes there are three good intercooling options I have worked out.

I have a Mitsubishi air to air unit that fits a Milano pretty well but it will require a couple 2.5 inch holes to be drilled in the car. Plus, I don't know if it would fit an A.C. equiped car without major surgery on the internal bumper structure. These are about $175 on evil bay.

For liquid to air the Syclone units are pretty cheap at around $175 on evil bay, OEM quality and work very well. However they won't fit if you have a distributor. The PWR unit is a much easier fit but it's more money. By the time you buy the pump, heat exchanger, plumbing, etc. it's quite a bit more.

5yearplan · Post by **5yearplan** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:09 pm

How much fluid does your system hold, how is the thermal runaway/ temperature drop?

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:49 pm

I just made sure I had more fluid than the Syclone. I figure the oem guys had that worked out pretty well and the Syclone has a lot of power. The Syclone/Typhoon crowd regularly put over 500hp through the stock intercooling system.

We haven't driven the car enough to know how much it lowers the temps.

With NO intercooler the air temps in the plenum off boost are about ambient +40F. When on boost they are about ambient +150F. So...when driving around off boost the intercooler will be between ambient and ambient +40F. I don't know exactly where. When on boost for an extended period of time it will rise some regardless of how much coolant there is. Don't forget an air to air unit's temp will rise under boost also, this is normal. Where it will stabilize I don't know. I am really not too worried about it. I have so many safety features protecting against detonation even if the intercooler quit totally the engine would be fine.

twinspark6 · Post by **twinspark6** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:36 pm

I own a syclone and The stock intercooler are good to about 500. They are very small and many guys to upgrade or either go to an air to air setup. Many syclone owners do extensive datalogging and after a quarter mile. The temp can go up about 20 degrees. Even with an aftermarket pump. It's better to leave the pump running all the time. I'm surpised some of you have heard of syty's. The excuse of not finishing my car is because of the syclone. I belive the syclone intercooler's have a capacity of 1.5 gallons.

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:00 pm

I rig it so the pump runs all the time. It only draws about 2 amps anyway. The temp will rise on a 1/4 mile run with any intercooler. Rising 20 deg sounds ok to me.

GarthW · Post by **GarthW** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:50 pm

Wow some amazing reading there guys, thanks. Well 5yr plan you certainly have had some light shed on your project possibilities!

Just going back to the earlier posts, its amazing just how much a stock 12v 2.5 or 3.0 can take. These engines of ours love boost. I know a 2.5 12v can handle over 1bar of boost in stock form. 10-12psi not a problem.

Again i was reading again late last night about the car Greg Gordon built and the power its making on just 7.5psi and its pretty crazy. On its way to nearly 300rwkw with stock management and internals gives you a great indication right there.

Just raising the bar abit, there is a guy getting around here in Melbourne with a Twin turbo Ferrari 355 with compression of something like 11.1 with standard internals and making big boost.

I think as long as you have the torque, high rpm should not be a factor. I've noticed the latest Porsche's have rpm limit set to 6400rpm and such for they dont need to be revved any higher, all the power you need you have to redline. More reliable in the end.

Good luck for whatever you plan to do 5yr, and of course, have that digital camera ready.

SydneyJules · Post by **SydneyJules** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:12 pm

The fastest Alfa I have been in is a 1.8T Alfetta GT. People are probably sick about hearing about this car. I love it. I want my car to be like it, when it grows up

Its running an HKS turbo in it now, and undergoing a few more mods, but I went for a ride in this thoughtfully setup car about three years ago, when it was running a GT25 with a set of long tubular manifolds, big air to air I/C, external wastegate, sidepipe exiting 3" exhaust, custom plenum, low comp pistons (not sure what comp), and stock rods. Revving to just over 7000rpm, this car would pull cleanly the whole way to redline, and had enough boost from about 3k in 1st to get the 17x8s spinning, just, followed by more wheelspin through 2nd, and after a redline change, on part throttle (so much so, that I thought it was the clutch slipping until the car jinked sideways), in third.
The centrifugal blower that was in the car has nothing on a turbo setup's torque, and top end.

If you are a young aussie kid, you probably read Zoom like I did, and think "hmmm, how to get 4789hp at the wheels like that guys CA18DET powered Silverskyliningisoneverycloud 24v TT 4wd.
The car makes what it makes, so build it, and go drive it.

The other way to do it, would be to get a Blown kit for the V6 kit off greg, and you can be sure (Cmon the man flies 727s- the last of the real man's jet going around) that it has been engineered properly. It was his own heartache and time and cash that he poored into the project, and he is still the only person around to have brought Forced Induction to the alfetta masses at affordable prices.

The kit is so untapped, that you can easily get more HP out of it. Its the torque that moves you.

Hell, go an be like my mechanic, and see how long a straight cut group A box takes the torque if you like.

Oh, I think you will find alot Greg's stuff has been done with the moonshot diff ratio too.

So in short, a 12v 2.5 V6 in a GTV6 with Greg's blower kit, a nice locked up 75 TS 4.1 gearbox, and an aftermarket ECU is gonna give most cars a good run.

Or you can go the more expensive route of buildin something yourself, and achieve similar results with a different route.

GarthW · Post by **GarthW** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:48 pm

Again i must say Greg Gordons setup is amazing. Yes so much more power to be had!! My god just with aftermarket ECU and raise it to 10psi and your ripping doors off. I forget if the exhaust was still standard , will check on it again.

Jules, always good to hear about that 1.8 GT

I still remember threads about it a couple of yrs back

I still read ZOOM lol

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:34 am

Just for the record, the SuperRedVerde does have an aftermarket ecu. It's using SDS. The exhaust system is using the original manifolds and catalytic converter, which is intact.

SydneyJules · Post by **SydneyJules** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:26 pm

Oops. Yeah I did notice that when reading the page- I confuse my short attention span by remembering the initial blown donk you did, Greg.