ALFAGTV6.COM

[zambon]

There has been much talk lately about what can reasonably be expected of the milano transaxle in the area of power handleing.
I speculate that a Milano transaxle that has undergone cryogenic hardening could live longer and hold up to more power than an original. I have never had anything cryo treated myself, but the purveyers of cryo treatment claim great results
Would this be a good idea on transaxles that will be attached to high output engines? Could cryo treatment, combined with shot peening of the ring and pinion result in a transaxle that could stand up to 300 hp for a reasonable life?

Please weigh in
-James

[twinspark6]

this is the exact thing i will be doing to my trans internals.

[junglejustice]

We took all of the weight out with cross-drilling and back-cutting ALL of the gears - even the reverse as well as the reverse idler gear - the wieght out reduces a great deal of the stress - then shot-peening to remove hairline fractures...

We have been punishing this boxes (mine on the track and on the street in the 3.0 and Jes' on the dyno laying down 350-375 at the crank...) Nothing - not a blip so far! (300 at the wheels...)

[Mark]

I ran my ts turbo gtv race car all season last year with a ts box without a drama.the car is making 400+hp.I spoke to the guys at Cryotuff about treating the gears and they told me that it would not make my gears and diff any tougher and that it would only strengthen the surface of the gears.How ever I did break 4 clutch housings which I cant seem to stop happening.I have also heard from some of the race guys that cryo treating can leave metal parts brittle.

[zambon]

The research that I have done seems to indicate that brittle parts are usually only the result of improper cryo treatment. Actually, I cant find any info that points to cryo treatment making parts brittle. Instead, poorly executed cryo processes simply weaken the metal People just think it is brittle because it broke and it was "hardened" by a cryo company.
Further, I have read that cryo treatment is not a surface only proposition. It treats the entire part if it is done properly.
How much of an effect cryo treatment will have depends on the composition of individual parts. Different materials respond to it differently.
I think that I am going to treat some of the internals from the Platinum transmission out of my parts car. (I am sold on this process). That is if I get it out of the car any time soon.

Mark,
I am very encouraged to hear that you have been ok without any mods in your car. Your engine is more power than I expect to ever have
. I am still happy to get this work done as insurance because in the US, limited slip gearboxes are rare and expensive to procure.
Do you have any photos of your clutch housings?

[SamW]

Zambon, when you get closer to doing the cryo, let me know, I may want to add some syncros and sleeves to your cryo order, I had been thinking about this too, I think Syncros would benefit from the treatment, I am not as worried about the gears since I am pretty easy on the trans.

[Barry]

James Im not sure cryo will do anything for our boxes-Im a total pessimist about cryo..I cannot see that it can work at all..
This does not mean Im oblivious to being shown the positive of the cryo pocess..
Im aware of the theory behind it all,but its still snake oil to me..
Dr Stu Kidgell ran his white tt with a 2.8 12v motor.This motor was able to break the tx in the following manner..
1)The outer gearbox casings would distort first with the result of binding gears and a lot of spares.-Stu then strapped the box(cradles,ally welded brackets etc..)
2)The box then started breaking the pinion head off.There was no remedy for this-He then went for a front mount box.

I remember him coming onto the main straight at Kyalami,feeding the throttle in until the boost started climbing and thunk..no more drive.The pinion had sheared.
This car,if I can recall,made 300-350 odd hp and about 450 nm torque..

My 2.0l turbo made 220 hp and 300nm torque-my problem was clutches and differentials..

Is there any scientific value to cryo??We now have it in South Africa and all the blokes are having all sorts done.This is more for bragging rights than anything else.
Is there not also a table shaking thing that is supposed to ,well,shake your parts??Something about harmonic freq. and all that bull..

[Mats]

All the "metallic material" guys I have talked to says it's really doubtful it will do any good. The metal stops doing anything below some hundred degrees C. Can't really see why it would do anything just because you make it colder.

But then again I may be totally wrong...

[Greg Gordon]

I feel the need to chime in here even though I have no idea about cryo treatments. I have found the first thing to go is the pinion gear. It seems to be related to long term fatigue. No amount of lighteing this or that will solve this problem. If cryo treatment will help that's great. Someone else try it out and let me know!

[zambon]

I am sold on it.
I believe that this is not a sorted out area and most of the purveyors of "cryo processing, hardening, ect" are indeed selling snake oil. If I run my blowtorch over my differential for an hour I could call that a heat treatment. Some cryo treatments actually damage parts because they cool the part improperly, (too fast).
There are also many learned individuals who do not believe that it can do much of anything. There are also many "scientists" who do not believe in global warming. That it isnt "proven" enough. OK, fine, but believing or disbelieving does not change reality.
Very little money has been spent on studying cryogenic treatment processes. There are some studies that have shown impressive results. The US military uses cryo treatment in many of its parts specifications.
Nobody is ever going to do an expensive scientific study of cryogenic treatments in our exact application. Different metals respond differently to cryo treatments.
I have done a bit of research and I have concluded that it is a sketchy, wild west type game right now. Processes differ greatly from "company" to company. There are no standards at all.
That said, cryo treatments are being used extensively in professional racing here in the USA. Those pushrods need all the help they can get
This is not an end all be all, but it has shown varied results in a large number of applications when done by experienced people with good equipment.
Take it or leave it. You can all tease me when I break a pinnion after I dump money on cryo treatment.

[zambon]

Barry,
I am no expert about tt Alfas (never having seen one run). I do have a turbocharged 1985 Volvo wagon though
I think that a TT setup would be about the worst possible situation for gearset longevity due to the way that power nurses along while the turbo spools and then suddenly explodes forth when the boost finally arrives.
Also, 450nm torque! I am surprised it didnt twist the whole car and not just the gearbox!
Any photos of a re-enforced case?
Thanks for all the replies,
James

[Greg Gordon]

I am not going to tease you for trying it. Quite the opposite! I will be happy someone is stepping up to the plate to give it a try. I really don't have any idea if it will help or not.

[Barry]

James,Unfortunatly not-this took place a good number of years ago.
Stu`s car went from 2.8 ultimatly to 3.5l tt with 6 speed BMW box and then it was stripped and sold.
Stu Kidgell now runs a wicked Ultima GTR with 3.4l tt 24v.At the moment it holds the title of Quickest car in S.A.
This is determined on a 1/4 mile,race track,slalom and driver skill basis..
I digress..
Agree totally Greg,I keep it in the back of my mind and would welcome any input from someone who has treid it..Im not condemning it outright..
I just think its ,well.................

[zambon]

"I just think its ,well................. "

It is without a doubt

From what I have seen though, there are many reputable types that are on the bandwagon. Not just racing types that buy anything and everything to get that extra tenth. Some commercial fleets have started using this treatment on their brake pads and rotors because it made theirs last a lot longer. It reduced their parts outlay but more importantly, it reduced labor time and down time for their trucks. There is no romance in putting cryo treated brakes on a garbage truck.

Also, some aftermarket part manufacturers are reportedly using cryo treatment on their parts, particularly in braking applications.

If I can get the damned roll pin out of my shift linkage any time soon, maybe we can start finding out how it works on my transmission internals and case.

[Barry]

Ok,A very knowledgable forum member put me onto some sites regarding cryo..
This is a rats nest for the uninitiated...
Basically a heat treated component which has not been thoroughly heat treated(The quality of the process was not controlled and the process did not run its proper course..)can PERHAPS benefit from cryo after the fact.

If the heat treat process was only 70% successfull and you cryo`d it afterwards,it MIGHT take the process to 75% effectivness..Its got to do with the state of the materials before treating and after..
The 75% figure could be anything,no one knows(this is the way I figure the ramblings)it could be more ,it could be less..
The application apparently does not benefit from the process..It is only the base material that MAYBE benefits..
Cryo will do nothing for splines for example,as the weak point with splines are where they stop and the rest of the shaft continues..
Hell,I hope Im not talikng crap here..but this is what I read into it..
We realy need an engineer in metalurgy to help here..and then he needs to have cruo experiencs..
Different materials can benefit to differing amounts and a load of other stuff..
Way beyond me Im afraid..

Ill do some more homework and see what I can come up with..

(What Im actually saying is Ill get the enginr to write a piece for us and then claim cudos for doing the job myself!!!)