ALFAGTV6.COM

[grant]

I'm in the process of planning my engine build for the near future. It's a 3.0 12 valve V6 in my Verde.

I'm looking to run S pistons, CSC headers, megasquirt (or Gotech if MS doesn't work out) and slightly-hotter-than-S cams.

The question is, should I be using a modified Milano style with larger intake runners or would just using a 164 setup work? I'd like my power band to be aroudn 4000 to 6700 with a redline of 6.5.

Can a mild 12 valve utilize 45mm intake runners from a 164Q, or is that too big? Will the longer 164 intake runners be too much of a detriment for making power higher up?

Thanks in advance,
-Grant

[Nikoror]

also 164 plenum sits lower (you can put a strut brace in case you go to coil-overs at some point) and allows you to use standard o-ring injectors. Fuel rails are better and fuel pressure regulator is set at 3 bar rather than 2.5.
If I remember correctly the standard runners are waaay too short (calculated for something like 9500rpm). The 164 ones should definitely be better.
I don't get it why you want a power band till 6700 with a 6500 redline
BTW There's a book called something like Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Manifolds - useful, but a PAIN to read

[grant]

Thanks for that info. I want to upgrade the valve train at a later date. I'm finding out that the second series of this engine had stronger pushrods that I would want to get a hold of if I want to operate at higher RPM.

[Zamani]

Stronger push rods or rockers? Either way, that's only for lobes with very aggresive ramps and/or high rpm engines (7.5K+).

[grant]

According to Keith (Slyalfa), the pushrods were thicker. I forgot what his source was. I know about using 164 rocker arms, I'm going to track some of those down.

Can anyone else confirm if the pushrods were ever made stronger, or was it just the rocker arms?

[x-rad]

does 'stronger' mean 'more reciprocating weight at higher rpms'

I never heard of a push rod or rocker arm failure up to 7500 rpms (doesn't mean it doesn't happen , though)beyond this I don't know.

I would suspect that you can use much lighter titanium

http://www.tivalves.com/?gclid=CImZ2o7- ... OAod_Tw1dQ

or

http://www.campbellenterprises.com/valv ... valves.htm

valves and new guides instead of Alfa valves and of course heavier springs if you want to rev way up there. Valves can be cut to length and the proper groove cut in the stem.

are you going to do anything to the bottom end as I would expect C-rod failure before push rod or rocker arm failure since C-rods are moving twice as fast and for other reasons....

[grant]

X-rad, thanks for the info.

I really want to do this as cheap and dirty as possible. I'll wait until I have a steady income to do things the right way.

Right now that means: stock conrods, $157 megasquirt, hand ported or 164S intake manifold, and cleaning up and gentle port of the heads. I've ported manifolds on a rotary engine and did some research before. I think I"ll be OK if I don't go over board anywhere.

O yeah, I have 118K miles on my engine. If my camshafts aren't going to be that hot, does it justify taking the entire engine apart just to fit S pistons? How much is .5 C/R worth anyways?

[ar4me]

Grant,
If you want to do this as affordably as possible I would find a totalled S and transplant the entire engine plus electronics into your Milano (utilizing the necessary parts off your Milano: bellhousing, starter, exhaust manifolds, probably flywheel, sump, ...). That will give you reliability, drivability, no problems with smog, and you would probably even come out with $ in your pocket if you part out the S.
Jes

[x-rad]

ar4me's idea is a good one but you are still back where you don't know the internals and may want to open the new engine anyway..

I would go for the STANDARD 3.0 rebuild under budget, save your money until you can buy a second engine and do that one up as bad as you want..

if you have not rebuilt a v6 alfa, this is your time to learn the little fine points specific to Alfa. This knowledge can be used to build you super engine later when there is time and money

a good strong regular 3.0 is plenty fast in the gtv6....

[grant]

And leave my engine stock?? Why??

Jes, your idea is the logical one, but I don't want to be parting anymore cars out...

[Zamani]

If your engine has even compression across all cylinders, just shave the heads a little, put new valve guides and seals, cut new seats, and make sure you get really good seal between the valve face and the seats, Then put in new cams for now. Don't touch the bottom end until there is more cash to go around. When you have the cash, go for at least 10.5:1 pistons.

[x-rad]

Why? because of the 2500$ budget you mentioned.....

your looking at minum 250$ for seat grinding and backcutting

if you keep your old valves and standard springs save some money

if you valves are worn: there is another 200$ just for 'stock' IAP stainless valves

new springs min 100$

70$ for new locks and 50$ new guides which will have to be reemed a little

cams: 600 and up a pair

also shims and new followers if you need them...

just the heads alone:~1000$ (not including labor cost)

but, you can significantly lower the overal cost by using stock components. This puts you back at all standard parts and prices. Hence my thought on keeping stuff stock...(so all you are really doing is porting/polishing/grinding seats/possible new shims/and S cams...all stock things) and you can still fit into the overall budget the new S pistons and liners!)

remember, if you go with more lift than S cams, you may have extra head work that needs to be done like follower bore grinding and lowering the intake valve guides deeper than standard depth which will add to cost...

For example..if you do my rebuild which has Carillo rods, C+B cams, venolia pistons, hastings rings, head work, new guides, new springs, new locks, new valves, new bearings, new headers, new seal/gaskets, new water pump, injectors...500$ labor on heads ,..etc..=~5300$ not including the engine(another $700 from a wrecked verde)

take it with a grain of salt..but for 2500, make a great reliable stock S 3.0 and save for the big one later...

[Daniel]

or ....

I'll sell you a 3.0 24v from a '99 GTV V6 with 50 000 km on it for $3500 and you can play from there - 220hp on stock everything.

[grant]

X-rad, your post sums it up nicely. These costs really to add up. I wonder, why did you decide on a hot 12V vs 24V for that kind of dough?

You know, the V6 sounds nice when it revs, but importing a 1.8T seems like a much more logical thing to do. Smog checks aren't that expensive to get around.

Jeez, Alfa game is expensive

Z, You make a good point. I think one piston is like 10% lower than the others or something, but oil use is reasonable and power seems about right.

Good discussion, but all of this really comes down to how much money I"ll have. I wish JimK was still around, I'd really like to hear his opinion on 164 vs GTV6 manifold for intake in addition to everyhting I've read so far.

I'm starting to lean towards 164..seems like for my budget, I'm only goign to be able to afford to keep the power range down low, which suits the 164 better.

PS, did Peter Webb really get 224whp with his 12V 164 setup???

[x-rad]

Because freekin Daniel decided to wait until now to make his post!!!



just kiddn: real reason is that my car came with 3.0 which needed rebuilding. I rebuilt the first one stock to save dough....then I picked up another 12v for about 700$ and took my time gathering the parts to make it go faster...

I am a BIG TURBO JUNKIE....go for a 2.0L ...pull one out of a junked Spider....and turbo it up...

check out Brian Berger's site and hear it live...

http://www.alfagtv6.com/b_berger.htm

play 3rd gear baseline run as loud as you can