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GarthW
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Hey Duk i agree with you about log manifolds, just looking at them you can see how the gasses would clash against each other.

But mig welding is fine in my book, all my manifold is mig welded except the part/seat which the turbo sits on, thats tig welded.. And when you look at the manifold pictured below, its prone to stress, but it has been no problem what so ever. Good prepartion and attention to detail was payed..Dont get me wrong i love tig welds, but i only had 1 month in my friends workshop to do everything, so tig welding was out of the question.

Here is a pic for you all to look at..this is what i copied off to make my manifold, mine is exactly the same as what you see, except its not stainless, mine is in steam pipe, and it flows like you wouldnt believe, with this type of manifold i saw no reason to twin turbo charge. I like the idea of one turbo being slammed with all 6 pulses of gas at once. Less heat, weight and oil consumed..
Turbo spools up easily before 3000rpm, and once i upgrade to a 0.86 rear exhaust housing, there wont be much difference in spool up time.

This is from an engineering company here in australia who does single and twin turbo jobs, this manifold is good for around 500-600hp. So i didnt hesitate to copy this design...not sure if i posted this in my build thread...and never had a shot of what i made for the work was quite extensive and many hours went into it, its one thing to copy, and when i was at this stage the camera never came out.
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Pic of tig welded turbo seat..beautiful..
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by Duk »

A slight variation of that design.
Garth, I wish you'd stop telling us about your turbo, I'm to easily tempted and my project is at snails pace with no effort put into any engine work (read: turbo (s) still a possibility :P)
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Ha ha!! Thats funny, you just wait till its back on the road and the video i have in mind... :twisted:

But what can i say, you hardly touch the pedal and she spools that turbo like its nothing.

What car is that from Duk..is it a toyota aristo or something like that..?

But Duk, you should be tempted, i just cant believe how the chassis of the gtv6 takes on the power with the turbo, its just magical.. :D 8)
And the 2.5 V6 is such an amazing engine you dont have to go crazy in the turbo department... :wink: Ok stopping now... :P
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

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GarthW wrote:What car is that from Duk..is it a toyota aristo or something like that..?
Close enough, it's a JZA80 Supra with the 1UZFE V8 fitted, but they are based on the same chassis as the Aristo (tho the Aristo never came with a V8 either).
GarthW wrote:But Duk, you should be tempted, i just cant believe how the chassis of the gtv6 takes on the power with the turbo, its just magical.. :D 8)
And the 2.5 V6 is such an amazing engine you dont have to go crazy in the turbo department... :wink: Ok stopping now... :P
I need a bank account saving 'Garth's posts about turbo'd Alfa's' filter :P
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Ah a supra damn, well with the V8 i never would have guessed! Any better than the 2JZ..? Well it must with the extra torque right..? What HP it running..?

I need a bank account saving 'Garth's posts about turbo'd Alfa's' filter :P

hehe!! :P :P
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by jamal555 »

hey i have a crazy idea to check out, does anyone know the measurements for the 1.8t ex-manifold... flange angle to the head and/or port sizes and spacing center-to-center?

also u said something about stainless being bad for manifolds? can u elaborate a little?

i would really hate to dismantle the car to measure it. thx.

btw. regarding that welding... careful mig welding is fine for street use, under continuous stress of lets say 50 laps on the race track it will give in... but for anything below 250hp standard log manifold will do the job... after that u are looking at problems...
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by MR2 Zig »

Stainless has several properties that could be a problem for automotive use. Realize my experience comes from the industrial side.

It grows ALOT with heat. When it cools it may not go back to the spot you started with. Once seasoned, it will grow and contract consistantly.

It warps flanges like mad when welding and if you machine the flanges after to get flat surfaces you get different thickness es and that will warp when you put engine heat to it.

it work hardens...the more you bend it the more it wants to crack.....same with heat ...the more heat cycles it sees the more it wants to crack.

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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by Duk »

jamal555 wrote:..... but for anything below 250hp standard log manifold will do the job... after that u are looking at problems...
Why compromise your power potential with a hugely bad design? Just say, for the sake of example, you make 220hp with a log manifold, how much power would that engine/turbo/boost pressure combination make with a well designed collector based manifold?
Finding 10+ horsepower wouldn't be unrealistic even at lowish 220hp.
Better boost response (boost starting at a lower engine speed) and lower exhaust valve and manifold temperatures would be other benefits.
I made my log manifold for my twin-charged Toyota MR2 only because I couldn't hold the turbo above my head and make a jig (working from underneath the car) at the same time.
I did however make a jig based on my log manifold. Even tho I am (still) doing the work, including machining, I bought the head flanges, turbo flanges and a heap of bends and T pieces for the log manifold. I would have saved plenty of money and heaps of time f I was able to do the job propperly the 1st time.

Do it propperly and do it well :D
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Here here!!! :D

In response to Duk :P

Its like nobody believes us!! My my...whats this world coming to... :P

To jamal-I have to prove your theory very wrong i'm afraid, my mechanic who did my engine management and has been working on turbocharged cars for well over 25 years now-Phil Buggee from Bits Of Italy, has a special client of his who he built the manifold for, and extensively tuned a particular boosted car which has turned so many laps at Bathurst and other tracks around Australia it makes your comment quite laughable, also he built a turbo fiat spider which for years he contested in Targa Tasmania, which is a 6 day rally event....i'll say it once again, if a manifold is built correctly, you do it right, you can forget about it..i cant say anymore on this. There's another guy here in Oz who's company goes by the name of 6boost, send him an email, i think he'll happily tell you about the hundreds of manifolds he has now built for many happy clients, in drift, drag and circuit, he has an amazing reputation and the quality of his work speaks for itself. :wink:

Thats it, i'm outti.. :mrgreen:
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by jamal555 »

k, thx Duke and Garth

I'm not disputing that EL beats log in every respect, and that properly build manifold is the way to go... but u guys live in australia and have access to many good fabricators and materials...

on the other hand I live in a backwater country that still thinks that cold war is ongoing and that vw golf II gti is the best car in the world... and turbos are only good for diesels. that's 95% of the mentality here... i had to order every last bit on my car from abroad... and do u know how many 1.8t's are here in the whole country... 3... alfas in general are very very few compared to german manufacturers... and as i said turbos are still a taboo... manifolds... and manufacturers... LOL i am even ordering pipes of the net coz good steel is also impossible to find in correct size and its always straight... no bends or serious bending equipment here that i can get my hands on... i.e. not in the factory...

so...

since buying one for 1.8t already made isn't an option :)
i'm either making it myself, flanges, bends, tacking... and having some1 else tig weld it...(i really have no tig welding exp.)
or buying one in similar dimensions for some other car and redoing/re-welding the flange...

cheers...

P.S. that adaptronic is a really nice ecu... i got it 6 months ago... been fiddling with it last month, really like it...
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Damn ok that explains it sorry mate.

Well done on getting the Adaptronic, yes its a little gem.. :D
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by Duk »

I thought I'd add this after Garth's mention of '6Boost' manifolds.
I'm not intending for it to sound like an advert, but this bloke, Kyle/6boost, contributes to the Australian Toyota forum I'm a member of and I thought it'd be a worth while addition to the discusion of turbo manifold design:

"Just a quick post to tell the results of my exhaust manfiold change/conversion.

after running the 9.9 at wsid (Western Sydney International Dragracing) months back Kyle from 6boost manifolds contacted me askign would i be interested in testing one of his manifolds. i thought why not. Kyle backed his product well stating he would build me a manifold with the same flange position so i wouldnt have to change my dump pipe or wastegate so that if i didnt find good results i could put my old one back on and nothing would cost me money.

so i took off my manifold sent it up to him, he built his design manifold with the merge collector to suit a split pulse turbo and sent it back. all i had to do was finish off the wastegate plumbing to suit the car as it would have been difficult for him to do it without the car. at this point i had decided to go to twin tial wastegates as they are a contigency sponsor for sport compact and sean (super crown) had found good results running twin gates.

so with no other changes than kyles manifold and the wastegates (which aren't going to change power outputs)and also a minor convertor adjustment we put it on the rollers with the same tune, at 16 psi we picked up 64 rwhp, with a change of 440rwhp to 504 rwhp. we also picked up early spool of about 600 rpm.

i was really happy with this. the car at boost of 28 psi use to make 635rwhp with the rear tires peeling off rubber. the car now makes 721rwhp and it either climbs out of the dyno or smokes the tires like your doing a static burnout (even with 3 110 kilogram guys sitting in the back of it) so i cant say exactly what power it is making due to the wheel spin, i know we have run out of injector (they are 1000CC) at 55 psi of fuel pressure and will need to up them to put any more boost into it.

now the most impressive part in my opinion, since going to the 1.5jz (A 1.5jz is considered a 1jzgte 2.5ltr cylinder head, which has different head flanges, bolted to a 3 ltr 2jzgte bottom end) and the GT42R turbo i have struggled to get the car to sixty foot better than a 1.77, when it used to consistantly low 1.6 and a couple of times 1.5'd with the 1j package. the car set a pb sixty foot of 1.51 at jamboree. and thats with a tighter converter which should make sixty footing even slower and harder to do.

now put that 1.51 sixty foot with the rest of my increments from the 9.952 pass at 149.58 mph at wsid and that would equate to a 9.4 et without the increase in power. now thats what gives me a chubby, as racing is what i built this car to do, not win dyno comps.

its safe to say my old exhaust manifold has been sold to a very happy buyer and i will be sticking with the 6boost manifold.

i was skeptical at the results i was being told about kyles manifolds, but i can now first hand recommend to any one serious about going to a single turbo, if you want early response and power, i dont think you can go past the 6boost manifold. sure its more expensive than a china manifold, but you get what you pay for, i believe the 6 boost manifold comes with a life time warranty from cracking, which i have seen plenty of brand name japanese and these chinese manifolds do, even with a lot of bracing."

*This guys car is FAST!!! I've done some minor editing of his http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthrea ... t+manifold post, but the mass and important stuff is all original!

Also, while I haven't personally used the Adaptonic, it's configurabillity, number of inputs and outputs, tuning density and support says volumes!
Certainly much better than some of the established 'cheeper' brands here in Australia!!!
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Holy crap i cant believe the HP you gained with the manifold and gates...i mean i can believe... but faark thats very noice, indeed yes! :D

Great power on just 16psi, turbo would be laughing at that,, "Ha ha i'm on a holiday" lol. 8) And the jump in hp on the 28psi setting.... :twisted: :shock:

Good about the 2jz bottom end, built so tough, heard they can take up to 800HP in standard trim..? Or there abouts...i could be marginally wrong.. :roll: But mid nines, thats very quick...how much does she weigh..? Dont tell me its in street trim..? :shock:
Imagine if you had slicks and cutters on the front..flat 9..?

Very good MPH as well...got me thinking about having a split pulse as well, specially when i put the 0.86 exhaust housing on....hehe mmmm. :D 8)
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by Mats »

Well, if we had a gearbox that could take the power a "perfect manifold" is nice, but I guess a log-design and some extra boost works fine for us... :wink:
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Re: 4-cylinder turbo performance

Post by GarthW »

Hmmm Mats, that surprised me, a log manifold and extra boost sounds like extra heat build up...i know heat equals power, but with a log setup, the heat would build in areas where you wouldnt want it...extra boost should not have to be a substitute for extra gain, responsiveness or power...the right turbo application will spool and make great power without having to increase boost all the time.. specially with the new spec turbos out there...but each to their own i guess and whatever makes you happy in the end, with mine though i hardly have to touch the pedal, all my pipes merge into collectors and are of equal length. I picture gasses with an unimpeded flow slamming that turbo with no restrictions and better force. And in my view a log manifold isnt so much about saving money, if really pressed for time then ok, but then again i spent countless hours on making mine, i loved working on the pipes, and i realised why a shop would have charged me around $2k for the complete setup i made, labour costs would have been through the roof, and the end result was a great achievement for me and much satisfaction.
Being told by a drag racing nut here in melbourne who owns Full Flight Engineering that my car will reel off a high 10, flat 11 sec ET after i took him for ride, well it was great to hear, it pulled so hard in every gear i knew my manifold was flowing well, i was only running 9-10 psi. Once i get a 15-18psi fuel map written and dial the peak torque into the launch control, i'm gonna hit that drag strip and a flat 11.00 ET will come...easy.
Once i rebuild these damn heads. :roll:


Will pull the 18's off and put the 15's on of course. Will squat abit better in the rear... :wink:
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