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<  Performance  ~  24v headwork - power gains

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:05 am
GoldGoldJoined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:05 pmPosts: 63Location: Slovenia
5-7A is around 80W and that's not much.
I dont believe in articles too much because they can be biased. I rather read opinions of owners over wide range of forums to get a bigger picture. Well there are not many owners that use ewp for daily drivers...



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:28 am
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:26 amPosts: 4056Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Pull into pits, plug in AUX-battery, flip the switch to force cool with fan and pump. Nice...
The Davies Craig controller has LEDs to show status, including failure modes. I'm planning to fit it in the center console so I can check the function of the pump if the temp starts climbing for some reason.



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:40 am
VerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:10 amPosts: 1692Location: Athens,Greece
Hmmm, I've been thinking about the 80lt/min unit also. It will fit the 1.8T nicely, but I still can't think of a practical/neat installation for the 24v. What I don't like is the 2000hr lifetime, vs 7000hrs for the 115lt/hr unit. 2khrs for a daily driver can mean 1-2 years...
Jim K.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:04 am
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:56 amPosts: 765
Or this

http://www.meziere.com/ps-892-860-wp136s.aspx#

Good company, but I'm not 100% if it is adequate. I would add a PWM controlller and get the input from the TPS, so 0% TPS min, speed, 100% TPS, max speed. That way
your pump doesn't have to run at max speed at idle.

Or simpler yet, below X rpm, run it at half speed, above that run it at full speed.

No need of an EWP controller.

However, life experience tells me that where you try to save, sometimes you will eventually pay more.

For a daily driver, or a road going car with almost daily driving duty, maybe the Davies craig EWP + controller is a much safer bet. Maybe the $200 you try to save going the meziere way will end up with a $200 tow truck call :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:27 am
VerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:10 amPosts: 1692Location: Athens,Greece
I would think the best way to control pump speed would be to PWM according to temperature, independently of engine rpm.
Jim K.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:27 pm
GoldGoldJoined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:44 pmPosts: 190Location: Perth, Western Australia
I am currently trying to work out how the previous owner installed the Davies Craig fan in my 105 with a 75TS motor. I have just changed to the digital electronic controller. Here's a reply from a Davies Craig representative :-

Hi Brian,

Many thanks for email in relation to the operation of the Davies, Craig EWP/Fan Digital Controller.

Why do we need a EWP/Fan Digital Controller at all?

The major benefits of an Electric Water Pump (EWP) are to minimise the parasitic power losses running a mechanical pump at high speed when not needed, maximise engine warm-up and minimise the effects of heat soak by running the EWP on after engine shut down.
To maximise these benefits, a EWP/Fan Digital Controller, which delivers increased voltage to the EWP with the corresponding increase in engine temperature is essential and efficient.
The EWP/Fan Digital Controller replaces the engine’s thermostat and becomes the ‘smart intelligent’ electronic coolant and fan Controller for your engine’s cooling system. When the ignition is first turned on, the EWP/Fan Digital Controller will 'system check' the EWP and will run the pump for approx. 10 seconds.
The EWP/Fan Digital Controller supplies a six volt pulse width modulation (pwm), (10 seconds on – 30 seconds off) to the Electric Water Pump from a cold start until the engine temperature reaches -20◦C of the target (set) temperature. At this point the Digital Controller then supplies a pwm (10 second on – 10 seconds off) till -5C at which point the Controller will ramp up to full system voltage (13.5v) as and when required searching for and locking onto the target (set) temperature.
Electric Thermatic Fan/s will be deployed at this point (+3◦C above target temp) if slower travel (traffic) or engine idle conditions continue.
If the engine cools below the target temperature, the Controller will step back from full system voltage down to 6v if necessary and generally it will go back to pwm when highway cruising.
The EWP/Fan Controller has a built-in automatic time-out has been built in to eliminate heat-soak after engine shutdown. The EWP/Fan Controller will continue to operate the EWP for 2 minutes or until the temperature has reduced to 5◦C below the Target (set) temperature whichever occurs first.
The Digital Controller will indicate when;
The EWP® is running – (The 75 degree LED will ‘flash’ till the engine temperature reaches this point and will move up the register till the fans are turned on, 3 degrees above the ‘targeted/set’ temperature, read above)
The target (set) temperature is reached
The supply voltage is too high,
The EWP® is running at full voltage supply and is not holding the target temp (Thermatic Fan/s will be turned on)
There is no power to the EWP®

If you wish, you can look at what the Controller is supplying the pump by connecting a voltmeter to the EWP® motor leads. But remember when the Controller is in pwm mode, the voltmeter will flicker.

Major advances in the updated EWP/Fan Digital Controller:
A suite of self-diagnosis ‘test’ functions have been built-in to the Controller which will identify and give you visual warning enabling simple trouble-shooting -- if a system problem is evident.
Temperature setting is now digital in that the SET temperature is now easily adjusted at the touch of a button. There are five options 75C (165F), 80C (175F), 85C (185F), 90 (195F) and 95C (205F). The Controllers is factory set at 85C (185F).
An automatic time-out has been built in to eliminate heat-soak after engine shutdown. The EWP/Fan Controller will continue to operate the EWP for 2 minutes or until the temperature has reduced to 5◦C below the Target (set) temperature whichever occurs first.
The Controller has a number of monitoring features to keep the user advised of system operation conditions at all times e.g. Controller on, pump operation mode, cooling system temperature etc.
The three options are available for mounting the temperature sensor unit into the thermostat housing, top radiator hose or engine block near the engine coolant outlet.
The Controller weighs only 90 grams (3.2 oz.) and can be easily and conveniently mounted on the transmission tunnel of your vehicle.

Kind Regards,

JOHN F BENSON
Sales & Marketing Manager


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:12 pm
VerdeVerdeJoined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:15 pmPosts: 521Location: South Australia
Ever notice how this thread has gone massively off topic and that Brad the OP, hasn't even replied???????? :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:01 am
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:26 amPosts: 4056Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Have you ever noticed how that is true for basicall ALL discussions on this forum? :wink:



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:42 am
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:56 amPosts: 765
Shame on you Duk, that's the GTV6.org tradition :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:58 pm
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:37 amPosts: 2295Location: Brisbane, Australia
bteoh,

Thanks for the Travelers' Guide to Europe version of controlling water temperature. All fine and dandy until it goes wrong like all the over engineered stuff and the "keep it simple stupid" is rule forgotten.

A simple thermo switch like Alfa use in the radiator is quite capable of turning a pump on & off to control water flow and a standard mechanical thermostat regulate water temp. It doesn't need a NASA movie script.

If the thermo switch is independently powered, it will also deal with the heat soak by continuing to pump the water until it gets below its temp rating and then switch the pump off.



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:17 pm
VerdeVerdeJoined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:15 pmPosts: 521Location: South Australia
All right, I give up :P

If you are using an electric water pump and just switching it to full flow at a pre determined temperature, then it would be a good idea to have the pump running at some sort of low flow rate, so that coolant is circulated around the engine and heats it all evenly. A simple motor speed controller could do this and then either an adjustable temperature switch or if you have it, an output from a programmable computer would simply switch a relay to bypass the motor speed controller and provide full voltage to the pump.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:30 pm
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:56 amPosts: 765
I prefer to have the pump constantly on rather than going from off to full speed. You could probably be ok with a fan failure, but a pump doesn't run when it is supposed to turn on it would be a disaster. The water temp shoots up really quickly. With a failed fan, you drive at 30 mph and the temps go down.

For the water pump you can't have an on/off switch. It needs to have some kind of regulator for the speed. If it's going to have an on/off switch, may as well stick with the mechanical pump at least the speed is mechanically regulated.

The pump should run at say, 30% speed ALL the time except when the thermo switch is turned on at which point it goes to full speed. At least you will know that the pump actually runs with it running at 30% all the time.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:51 pm
VerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:10 amPosts: 1692Location: Athens,Greece
I prefer proportional control, that is, variable speed according to temperature. As a necessary safety measure (MD's valid argument) a pump on/off switch triggering outside the proportional range completes the set.
Jim K.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:51 am
User avatarVerdeVerdeJoined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:26 amPosts: 4056Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
MD wrote:
bteoh,

Thanks for the Travelers' Guide to Europe version of controlling water temperature. All fine and dandy until it goes wrong like all the over engineered stuff and the "keep it simple stupid" is rule forgotten.

A simple thermo switch like Alfa use in the radiator is quite capable of turning a pump on & off to control water flow and a standard mechanical thermostat regulate water temp. It doesn't need a NASA movie script.

If the thermo switch is independently powered, it will also deal with the heat soak by continuing to pump the water until it gets below its temp rating and then switch the pump off.


Before the thermosiphon effect has pulled the hot water to your switch the engine is crap. :wink:

Jim: like my pump+fan override switch? :)



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Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-

GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Still lives!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:28 am
VerdeVerdeJoined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:10 amPosts: 1692Location: Athens,Greece
Yes, but like I said, in the form of a common radiator fan switch outside the normal operating range, so it doesn't interfere with regular operation.
Jim K.


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