ALFAGTV6.COM

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:10 am

Brian, you villain!! Ready to commit sacrilege! You snail lovers will stop at nothing! You're the kind of people who'd put sunglasses and lipstick on the Mona Lisa, hahah! You are -to my knowledge the FIRST....pervert (!!!)ever to even THINK of turbocharging the classic AR 16valver! Heheh!,are you by any chance related to Mats?? Seriously, no one's ever attempted this,I suppose because these motors are rare and probably most if not all, have a home in historic cars. I have no Idea about prices,but back in '89 when I was going to buy this 16v, the seller wanted $1500 US for the just rebuilt engine complete with the exhaust manifold. The reason I didn't buy it? I wanted to dyno the thing to make sure it would hold up (sort of:put your money where your mouth is) and the seller declined. I thought that was suspicious and I backed out.I called a friend and told him about it and within the hour he bought it himself TO SELL IT-which I had not thought of doing, Dumb shit!! Most technical minded people make shitty businessmen! I only wanted the engine to put it in my (then) gtv 2,0. Oh well, what's done is done.
As far as turbo-ing goes, you'd have to build different cams, decrease CR and most important (and most impossible!) recalibrate the Spica! ARE YOU KIDDING!!
Well, that's all for now, hey Mats no offence I hope, we're all having a good time here!
Regards,
Jim.

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:21 am

Oh,I just remembered something. Sometime ago this Alfa nut here (NOT me!) succeeded in stuffing an Opel 16v head on his Alfa block. I have no details, but from what I've heard it wasn't easy.
Speaking of Frankenstein motors,this is a thought with enough potential don't you think?
Jim K.

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:36 am

Yes, I guess it is a bit sacriligious!

I was just thinking about the free-flowing head, certainly new cams... scrap the Spica and of course lower the CR.

Come to think of it, do you have or know of any technical data on how well the heads flow? I am just assuming the 16v head flows better than the 8v. I know the TS head has much improved flow.

Get enough of us together and Jim can design a 16v head for us. I know he has priced the foundry services fee and if memory serves it was not that outrageous. I will ask him again.

Are Mats and I related? Dunno, grandfather was born in Stockholm and my middle name is Nils and we both love Alfetta GTV's. Yea, guess we are!

Cheers a lot,

-Brian

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:43 pm

What the hell? I look away for one minute and suddenly I got a relative in Ohio?

I would never put a turbo on that engine, that lump is old. I don't care for history, I'd rather win...

Brian, how about I fly over there and booze you up and pick your brain?

Maybe you can stash a set of rods and pistons for me to pick up?

Hey Jim, that goes double for you, I'm coming down there and I'm bringing Grappa!

I'm actually swinging both ways now, Turbo is great for a streetcar that sees lots of "highway-straightline-bursts" and great for insane racing (high hp/displacement engines) where you can't compete with our silly little engines (

) , But for perfect car-control N/A is the shit, also most classes don't permit turbo or supercharger.

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:59 pm

Mats,

You are welcome anytime. (Although something tells me the weather and food is better at Jim K's!)

Better yet, we can take a short drive to see Jim Steck at his shop.

You may want to reconsider that "swings both ways" comment... Here in "Umerica" that has a W-H-O-L-E different meaning! (grin)

ευθυμίες!

-Brian

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:42 pm

I'd like to weigh-in, if no-one objects... (We are done with the 2 V6 3.7 Litre 24 Valvers), so now I am starting work with Dawie de Villiers in South Africa on 2 1600s and 2 1750s for us to run here in SOVREN - (Society Of Vintage Racing Enthusiasts...)

(He and I already have a 2 Litre Turbo in the works with 5mm longer Carillo rods and compensated-rise forged pistons...!)

Any way, if you want an NA motor that will run AT LEAST a couple of race seasons reliably, (or years on the street), set your sights on about 160 horses at the crank for a 1600, 170 for the 1750 and 180 for a 2 Litre at sea-level. (We will only be running a max 1750cc, as the vintage rules here cut off at pre-1970 and only the '69s were 1750s...)

I know that there are engine builders who quote 200 on their NA 2.0 engines and I have heard that John Norman has seen 206 on the dyno, but some of these numbers may be more like blips on the output screen as you increase load to the dyno, rather than sustained, constant output numbers under stable dyno loads....

At these levels you are running AT LEAST a 12:1 compression ratio on a naturally aspirated motor and Dawie's steel ring head gasket inserts are compulsory... These engines WILL puke the head gaskets time and time again. (YEARS of playing with 4 banger Alfas before my V6 fetish taught me one thing: To make power on these engines, you need revs, compression and cams...)

The 2nd Achilles heel of these motors (after head gaskets) under pressure are the rods. The rod-ends will let go or the rods bend and/or break at high revs! Spend the extra 900 to 1000 USD for a set of Carillo rods! (They are the best) - we have 4 more sets on order and they come with their own anti-seize lube... Don’t even think about a turbo motor WITHOUT these…

Heavy head porting, (the man knows EXACTLY how much from his years of racing these before his V6 fetish...) 11.3mm lift and 302 degrees of duration on the cams. (No cheap regrinds - these are billet profiles made from solid stock.) Vanderval bearings. Total Seal gapless middle rings. 84mm Forged aluminium alloy pistons (I use Ross Racing) and tapered pins. You can run a stock crank, (but you HAVE to have it Nitrated/Plasma Heat-treated…)

A lightened flywheel - balanced along with blue-printed internals is standard issue!

After that, Dawie has a neat-o fuel injection setup with 4 individual throttle bodies, custom intakes and 2.5 Litre injectors - coupled with Domingo's fully programmable GoTech stand-alone engine management system. (We can't run these in SOVREN, so we will be running 40mm carbs on the 1600s and 45mm on the 1750s...) You can run as high as 50mm setups from Dawie on a 2.0...

The total setup for a 2.0 Litre, including the EFI ITBs, injectors, rails, engine management system, racing valves – everything, will run you around 9K INCLUDING custom headers and the core charge for the block and head plus shipping (about 400 bucks…)

Before these engines ship, they are first installed in a GTV test-mule, mapped, run in and dyno-tuned!

A local builder here quotes 300 horses for his 2.1 Turbo. Is 220 possible from an NA? Yes, for one or two races... Can Dawie build one? Sure. Back to some of the original responses; what's the budget for the motor? What are the goals in terms of longevity is my question? How hard will you plan (versus be able) to drive it...?

Let the scorn begin.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:27 pm

Brian: Well, I'm quite sure that the weather is far better in Ohio then in Sweden... Hardly gets light here now, today we had heavy clouds and the streetlights actually was on all day.

Check out where 60 degrees north is on your continent.

The swing-both-ways-comment was intended, you figure out which is which.

I'll bring some extra money to pay for Jim Stecks bar tab too. hehe. You guys seem to do a lot of stuff the right way.

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:54 pm

Mats,

"Check out where 60 degrees north is on your continent.

"

-Does my continent go that far north?

"The swing-both-ways-comment was intended, you figure out which is which."

-Touche (you got me on that one!)

"I'll bring some extra money to pay for Jim Stecks bar tab too. hehe. You guys seem to do a lot of stuff the right way."

-You are a kind person... might just have to let you drive the turbo to Jim's... since you are paying for the air fare... the least we could do is get your whistle wet.

-Brian

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:50 pm

Brian,Many years ago I built and ran my first 2.0l turbo-Those days we ran with Dellorto blow through carbs and normal old cast pistons(that made more power than the later Venolia forgings!) My motor made 190hp at 14 psi and no intercooler-hence the early expiry date-but I have not had so much fun in years as I did with that car.I could keep a Testerosa honest up to 200km/h(as an American once said to me on the phone"Whats that in real speed?")I personally enjoy the fact that this is done with such an old 2.0l engine -If only the guys now.....

I would keep your car as is and not even considder fitting a new type v6 or simmilar to it.I think you have a legend there.Get another to play with the v6`s

Vrey interesting as to the improvements with the headers and t/scroll...

Any update on JimSteck`s supercharged bonny engine??

Barry

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:55 am

Hey, I'm building a 2.0 Nord Turbo right now.

Cast pistons and all. Low budget (but not low tech or cheapo), no new parts at all except the management system (Which I've been mailing you about without respons...

)

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:49 am

Barry,

I think you are right to leave well enough alone. although I may look at a bb turbo in the future. From what I undestand one could see a 15% quicker spool up time. Do you have any experience here?

"real speed"... lol! You gotta love people!

The supercharger did not work out. To get the boost they needed they had to run it near its limit and sure enough it failed. He has built a twin spark turbo for next years effort.

-Brian

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:56 am

Mats,

You have been emailing me or Barry? I have not received anything from you if you have been emailing moi.

If you are trying to save a buck... check out eBay for used Elcetromotive TEC-II's. I am more than happy to share my data files and experience.

Also, I know Jim has some (4 to be exact) 50lb Bosch injectors I used in my car before installing 69lb injectors...

-Brian

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:43 am

Tried to reach Barry... I know he's busy so I'll just wait.
And that's why I'm trying to reach Barry, Gotech will suit me just fine.

Try to give me some real numbers and maybe I'll understand, 50lb? 69lb?? wtf?
I have a set of 500cc/min injectors already, I think they will do the job.

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:50 am

Yo, Mats,
Us continental dudes work with cc/min injector ratings. The NA crowd goes by lbs/hr. Of course OURS is the correct way (heh!) since they have to assume juice specific weight! Its more convenient for them because the formula giving injector sizing from power and BSFC is also in lbs/hr.
You can all trip down here for a while. Temps are around 14-20*C in the day, but its dark after 17:30 or so (and these fangs are a pain,until the sun comes up again!).
Regards,
Jim K.
PS. Speaking of relatives in NA, I got plenty in Toronto!Haven't been there for more than 24 years though.Anyone from up there? I remember it was funny, some US guys-not very bright-thought that you would find 10 ft of snow just by crossing the border at Niagara Falls in mid-July! Hahah!

4SFED4 · Post by **4SFED4** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:10 am

Mats,

69lb/hr = 720cc/min
50lb/hr = 503cc/min 100% duty cycle @ 43.5 psi

(cc/min / 10.5 ~= lb/hr) (for gasoline... of course)

I was seeing duty cycles over 100% with AFR's in the 11's at 15psi. With the 720cc/min injectors it's around 75-80%. Even with the big injectors the car idles just fine, min. inj. on time of 1.2ms.

Later,

-Brian

Glenwood 4 Cylinder Motors;