Steve B.
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24-Valve Project

Post by Steve B. »

After realizing that Alfa will not be returning to the US market until (???) I have decided to take matters into my own hands and create a car with more modern levels of performance. The project (which is currently underway) is as follows:

Base car is a 1982 GTV-6 Balocco (30,000 miles with a 12-valve 3.0 liter currently installed).

I have procured a 24-valve 3.0 liter engine from a 1995 164Q. The engine is being completely overhauled by Mike Besic and the conversion pieces (plenum and exhaust headers) are being fabricated by Larry Dickman of Alfa Parts Exchange.

The stock transaxle is being replaced with a box created from a 1981 GTV-6 and a Milano, the goal being to gain the 4.1 rear-end ratio not present in the Balocco with the more useable 1st gear of the Milano box and compatibility with the existing speedometer. The 3rd and 4th gears of the 1981 box are also being pressed onto the mainshaft of the Milano box, resulting in an extremely close ratio set-up.

A larger (25.4 mm) rear anti-roll bar is being installed to slightly reduce the understeer of the stock car.

Are there any other modifications any of you would suggest, especially to the suspension? My objective is a strong street car, not a track car.
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81GTV6
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Post by 81GTV6 »

lets see some pics!?
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Steve

Leave the standard bar in the rear, go with 30mm front sway bar if nothing else. Stiffening the rear will not reduce the understeer!!!

The problem is with the front end! Keep the front stiff and rear softer than the front. If you can, go with the full RS racing set-up......if to expensive, go with 30/33mm front bars from performatek, and rear springs to match. (280/320 lbs/") Bilstein 'sport' upside down dampers specially for lowered ride height.

Get the ride height around 12/13cm from the ground to the jacking point front and rear, run as much caster as poss, 2.5 degrees negative camber, and 2 degrees toe in.

As for the engine, whip .5mm off the heads to bump up the CR to 10.8/11:1 - dont worry, you can go up to 1mm easy and 12:1 with no problems..... loads of room!

Skim the outside of the flywheel as much as you can to loose weight - dont go up to the mounting bolts though!

Get a gotec engine managment system.....ditch the crap standard system, mail Barry in S.A for best price and working map - Barry Henning : ztech@absamail.co.za. You'll be looking at around 260hp easy.

Get some better brakes!!!!! and spend proper money on DECENT tires. I can't believe how many people spend loads of money on power mods, then buy sh*t tires.....

Go enjoy.


Andrew
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MD
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24-Valve Project

Post by MD »

One other suggestion I have for you Steve in addition to Andrew's recommendations is to strengthen the sway bar mounts if you are upsizing. The bigger bars tend to load up the mounts a lot more to the point where eventually they get fatigued and simply break off. It is a good idea to create a reinforced mount on the bodywork prior to installation. Failing to do so could become a safety issue if the failure happens at the wrong place wrong time.

Otherwise, I run a 27mm front and a 24 rear in combination with similar things Andrew has said and my handling for street purposes is very balanced.

Cheers

MD
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Post by Steve B. »

Thanks for the comments, guys. I am confused on one thing, though. All of my sources tell me that increasing the thickness of the rear sway bar (and the siffness of the rear springs) will result in more oversteer, if the front end is left alone. One of the previous posts implied that the front end needed to be worked on to accomplish the reduction in understeer.
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24-Valve Project

Post by MD »

Hi Steve,

I got my information from material off the former GTV6.org site from an article entitled "European Car Magazine GTV6 Project" and found the information invaluable. Try this link for another point of view that may help you.

http://www.alfagtv6.com/eurocar2.htm

I have applied measures in the article and for a street car, they are spot on. I think the article increases the front sway bar by about 4mm from stock at least that applies in my case.

There is also a lot of other usefull info there.

Cheers,

MD
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Post by Barry »

Totally agree with Andrew here-Dont touch the rear anti roll bar-On my gtv turbo I removed the bar completely.Work your frnt suspension to make it handle.When you reach serious limits you can start looking at camber on the rear.(and rear bars.)

Look at Ron Simmonds coil over setup or my KW setup-Sachs also do a great coilover setup in South Africa.

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Post by Micke »

Both are right Steve.

The theory says that stiffening the rear adds OS.

However, the reason for US in the Alfa isn't due to load transfer but front camber climbing up the walls (while the rear tires stand like they should).

=>

Reducing roll reduces US (can be accoplished by stiffening any end of the car with springs or AR bars). In the beginning the front is the bigger problem and definitely the place to start working.

When roll and/or camber is sorted out the car starts to react like it should and you can start fine tuning by changing front/rear stiffness ratio.
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Post by Steve B. »

Thanks for the replies, Barry and Micke. I am going back to the drawing board and look at the front end. I can buy 27 mm front torsion bars from Performatek.
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Post by Barry »

Steve,27mm bars are std fare-If your serious about making your car handle, stay with the bars you have and supplement with a ciolover setup.Or try getting the autodelta (The real stuff,not the London based co.)hollow torsions.These were made from 27mm up to 36mm dia.(This is what we got in S.A.)

Barry
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83 GTV6

Post by mjr »

Hi everyone,

I have been reading with interest, been a while since I have visitied the forum, only just having got my 83 GTV6 back on the road. Its completely stock and original, and I have run it that way for 8 years, but I am now looking to sort the handling and performance, nothing massive, but a modest mod, My local specialist advises me, that on a budget, handling will most benefit from, polyurathane tie bar bushes, a thicker front anti roll bar, and strengthened roll bar mounts too, to start off with. ie sort the front end out.

I am keen to sharpen the handling, but dont want to compromise too much of the great ride comfort on the GTV. Is this possible?

Personaly I would be looking to change the suspension too, and upgrade the brakes too, (since they need changing soon), to better calipers,(at least the fronts) discs, and install braided lines through out.

Any advise on improving the handling without turning it into a bone shaker?

I enquired about increasing power and responsiveness from the standard 2.5, which is a very healthy motor in mine, with 65,000 miles. I was advised not to bother with the 2.5 as it would be a waste of time. I mentioned changing to the BMW air box mod, and perhaps injection ECU etc, and was told it would make little difference. what are the best resasonable mods to the 2.5? I wont be putting in a 3.0 for a couple of years yet.

thanks in advance

MJ.

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Post by Mezevenf »

Steve B. wrote:Thanks for the replies, Barry and Micke. I am going back to the drawing board and look at the front end. I can buy 27 mm front torsion bars from Performatek.
Dont, stick with your first idea. Stiffer rear sway :)

I use a 24mm adjustable rear sway bar, works wonders. Stock front bar.

As a side note, I'm also on 28.7mm torsion bars with matched springs and koni yellows.
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Post by MD »

MJ

A question like this gets a wide range of responses for obvious reasons. Here's mine :

If your criteria is similar ride comfort to the original then you need to stick with the original "spring" rates. However, you should increase your front sway bar size to reduce body roll. Increasing the rear sway bar at the same time may introduce some additional understeer so you may want to leave that as original or experiment with maybe 1-2 mm bigger.

Replacing the dampers with the original factory units should do the job. More aggressive bound and rebound settings on so called sports dampers usually will result in some additional harshness in the ride. There are of course handling benefits of doing this but where you personally will draw the bar is something only you know.

Another mild improvement would be to increase your wheel diameter and run smaller profile tyres, say 60% aspect ratio.

I have said all this in the belief that you want a mild progression from where you are.

In terms of power gains, the most cost effective power gain on your healthy engine would be to fit a supercharger to it. I am not talking about those ridiculous refrigerator sized units that stick through your bonnet but more like a small unit decretely tucked in under the bonnet and maybe some exhaust systems to match.

However, if you do this, you will probably have too much squirt for the above set up so you really need to think the project over as whole from the start and clearly define where you want to be with it.
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Post by mjr »

HI MD, Thanks for prompt reply, your responce is all helping me to sort the good advise from the rubbish, I guessed that my questions are a fairly common query, that are difficult to give a difinitive answer to. I have had so many suggestions for improvements, and couldnt decide! :roll: , as to which direction to go in. Being that I have run the car totally stock for so long, I am keen not to ruin its good qualities, just eradicate the bad ones! Following has been suggested by a small alfa specialist local to me.

. I am basically trying to make the car sharpen up, , not make a track day car. How does the following sound??

1) Replace front sway bar with a thicker one to reduce roll, leaving the rear as is for now

2) replace tie bar bushes with nylon type from original rubber factory sets. I have already done this, and there is now a marked improvement in steering control under braking.

3)leave original spring rates, but replace shocks with Konis, front end will be lowered about 1.5 inches to help roll along with new sway bar.

4) 4 pot calipers front and bigger discs to front, with braided hoses to sharpen pedall feel, mintex pads.

5) steering a bit undergeared for cornering, mabe do something about that,.

Engine wise. I would like to stick with the 2.5 for now, looking for around 200-210hp. Many have advised the following as a moderately cheap option.

match, balance, gas flow ports, cylinder heads machined and polished for better compression ratio, with existing injection and ecu, leaving bottom end alone, . a modest 30-35hp increase without major changes for about 1200 pounds stirling.

Anyone had any experience of such mods to the 2.5? I seem to remember something about a chapparal racing? in the UK performing similar mods to the 2.5 and getting good results and reliabilty. I'm not after a fire breathing track GTV6, just a little more power and sharper handling


MJ
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Post by MD »

MJ

Agree with majority. Except.

Don't suggest changing ride height. It will just give you more dramas to sort out and London to a brick ,you will be putting it back to where it was. Cheaper choice anyway. Spend the money elsewhere where it will count.

Mild supercharging would be better value.

Otherwise, for what you want you are there.


?? Wheels and tyres?
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