ALFAGTV6.COM

[DP]

I know this has been discussed... but here it is anyway.

Rebuilt motor, rebuilt starter and alt. Initial start-up was perfect, drove the car and tried to break-in rings as best possible for 15-20 minutes. Lost 1-2, 5-R gears (popped the ball joint on the ISO linkage) Car sat for a week, replaced the link, no problem. Connected the battery, turned the key, nuttin'. No click, no power. Batter is fine, grounds all seem fine too.

Upon some frustration, jumped the main power at firewall (passenger side) to the solonoid junction box next to it. Turns over fine and starts. shut it off right away. Tried it by key again, started no problem. Dove the car another 20 minutes (2nd time), no issues. Next morning, turn key - nuttin'

Spoke to the Guru's of Alfa (Mr. and Mr. Gordon) they feel it's the igintion switch and I agree. Anyone have a good idea of where the wires are? My guess is the driver's side, main big red is power. Others????

I have a toggle and push button switch to mount...

Thanks a bunch!
Don P. (dp)
Ciao

[DP]

I was checking the manual and wiring diagram and it shows a "Starter Inhibitor Relay" in the mix. Anyone know where that is?

I found the connectors for the ignition switch. 3 wire connector and single black connector. The 3-wire has Red, Brown coming IN from the dash. There is a Green, Brown, Red coming from the ignition switch but the green looks like it stops at the connector? Then the Black (or dark grey, can't tell for sure) comes from the ignition switch and after the connector it is black (or Gray) again and also has a purple wire at this point which quickly dart up into the center dash area along with the other two.

So.... I tried to jump the red to the Black (or Gray) wire and it just sparked and didn't seem to do much - hopefully it wasn't a bad thing. I'm thinking the "Starter Inhibitor Relay" might need a spanking. Anyone?

Are there any forums discussing this? I tried AlfaBB and the old forum here but didn't find anything.

Thanks for any help.

OH YEAH, Mike sold me the electronics to convert the Verde gearbox signal to my GTV6 speedo and it seems to work perfectly! Nice, quick, easy to install deal - thanks Mike! Even though I've covered perhaps 10 miles with it, it seem to be worth every penny.

[DP]

Hi,

Well, Greg and his Dad also thought it was the ignition switch (and I haven't ruled it out completely). When the key activates the starter circuit, the green housing on the leads coming from the ignition switch get warm. I pulled the connectors apart and jumped the red power to the solenoid lead and it too became warm (both situations produced no solenoid/starter action by the way). So, logically, wouldn't that rule-out the switch? I no these cars can defy logic quite often... but in this case?

So, I spoke with Greg and he suggested checking the Volts on the battery. I'll do that tonight hopefully but I think the battery, etc. are fine.

Why would the coil be involved in this? I'm not understanding that one?

Oh yeah, with the ignition OFF or ON, if I jump the two junction boxes on the firewall, it activates the starter. If it's ON, the motor starts right up. If the ignition switch is OFF, the motor will turn over and not stop - unless, the ignition key is turned to the ON position (then it starts) or the battery is disconnected. Odd...

I don't want to continue heating-up the cables with this fun... Does this spark any memories in anyone?

[Murray]

Don I've just had a quick look at the wiring diagrams and in typical Alfa fashion there are variations depending on the model year.This version from the 83 manual ( excuse the quality) does not show a "starter inhibitor relay" another diagram I have does.Is it possible that when you are successfully rotating and starting the engine you are jumping the main power to the starter - bypassing the solenoid ? The smaller red wire is the solenoid coil wire and I'm wondering if even though you mentioned it's rebuilt maybe the solenoid is jammed ?

[DaveH]

I am about to get into this with SamW's car, so I will follow this 1 closely.

Here's my 1st thought: verify key switch operation. Do this by setting yr multimeter to ohms and probing the wiring coming off the switch. The Milano Starter .gif below shows how to do this.

Your symptoms strongly indicate a sticky starter solenoid. SamW's car is doing the same thing. It v bad when the car has sat for a couple of days without anyone starting it, esp on a cold morning. The symptoms pretty much disappear once everything is warmed up. I will still go ahead and check his key switch though; it is an easy (and probable) failure point to eliminate.

[DP]

Thanks Murray and DaveH!

I don't have that page in my manual... I'd better clarify too that electrical troubleshooting is not my strongest area.

Murray, I don't think I have THAT diagram but it's brother WITH the I10 "Starter Inhibitor Relay". It looks like that ignition has 4 lead coming from it where mine has 3 (I think). Would this make a huge difference?

I'll try testing the switch too but I was thinking about making a jump wire 12 or 14 gauge and going from the switch to the junction box for the solenoid energizer lead. Yes? No? The shop that rebuilt the starter said a very common problem is not having enough voltage at that point. So I'll be checking for what voltage is energizing the solenoid too. My thought today was that it was a stuck or sticking solenoid but the shop thinks it is not - specifically due to everything I told him - we'll see soon hopefully.

Thanks for your help guys, I'll check the switch and wires again and report back - maybe this evening if kid go to bed effortlessly - not likely.

[DP]

Well, I tried jumping directly to the solenoid energizer lead (junction box) from the red power lead at the connection for the ignition switch. Nothing. Just a spark

I do have an extra starter handy. I may wire that one into the car and see if IT works. How about that? Logically, that would point to the solenoid if this one works - right?

Thanks all,
Don

[DP]

DaveH,

I don't know what the 'AVV' and other settings are on the diagram you posted. Do you know if those are the key settings?

Thanks!

[DaveH]

DaveH,

I don't know what the 'AVV' and other settings are on the diagram you posted. Do you know if those are the key settings?

Thanks!

They are the key settings. Now what they mean? I have no clue what the translation is. Keep in mind that when you're in the 'run' position, the wire that always has power will be connected to 1 of the other wires. When in 'Start', it will be connected to both of the other wires.

To test if the key switch is making this connection happen, use the multimeter set to ohms and probe the 3 pin plug that comes from the switch. With one probe of the meter on the pin that always has voltage, probe the other 2 pins that comes from the key switch, in each of the 3 key positions. zero ohms is a connection. Mega-ohms or open circuit is, well, an open circuit.

[DP]

I'm getting closer. My friend came over last night (he's into old motorcycles, used to rebuild XKEs and owns a nice XKE - also, most importantly, he's handy with electronics). I explained everything to him and then connected the battery. We disconnected the main power lead to the starter just to hear and check the solenoid. Used the key, click, click, click (x10 to be sure). So, solenoid is functioning fine, we hooked-up the main power lead to the firewall junction box, turned key, motor started turning over. I then turned the key to "on" position and it was still turning over. I turned the key "off" motor kept turning over. Then I thought, "may as well pull the 'Gordon engineering choke' (aux air valve) and whilst reaching for it, it spontaneously stopped cranking. I pulled the air valve open 2/3 and it fired right up with the ignition switch (everything hooked-up as normal). Tried this about 10 times - no issues.... perfectly normal starting every time. @#$@#@#

So, we drove the car, got it hot and it's working very well but I'd really like to concentrate on breaking in the darn rings!!! Parked it and then it was back to no start. My assumption is that it's heat related.

We traced the the system through the ignition switch via test light. My friend's opinion is the same as Bob's (Greg Gordon's Father) - it's the solenoid sticking.

Okay... so I called the guy who rebuilt the starter, he's very nice, well-established and seems to know what he's doing. He firmly believes it's probably not the solenoid as he ususally replaces them (but of course cannot remember if he did or not with mine - that along with what Bob said about these being scarce.... hmmm.) So, he thinks I should measure all the voltages in the system before tearing the headers off, etc. (believe me, I like that alternative). His idea is that if the voltage fluctuates at all in the solenoid energizer circuit - it could cause this condition.

Now, I don't feel this answers the "why would it continue to run with the ignition off" question. That's what Greg's Dad (Bob) thought as well.

2 days later - this morning:
I upulled the solenoid off of an old Milano (functioning a few years ago - whatever THAT'S worth ) hooked it up to the junction box with main solenoid unplugged. Nuttin' - should've functioned... checked it with a test light - got full power light. Checked the voltage while in 'cranking' mode (after removing test solenoid by the way) and got 12.4V I believe. Everywehre else it's 12.7V - so that's a concern. Then, I reconnected everything and hit the key for the heck of it started turning over again - again, regardless of the key position. So, I fired it up and drove it for about 15 minutes. Came home with the car fully warmed, shut it off, cranked normally and started 2-3 times. That was 30 minutes ago....

So, anyone think it's STILL the solenoid? If history is any indication, the car will not start next time I try but I'll be back later this afternoon.

Oh yeah, my friend suggested using a Wurth contact cleaner (contains some acid to clean very well I'm told) on all the connections. I will do this as a last attempt before pulling the !@#%@% headers and everything off again.

[Zamani]

DP,

When it doesn't start, does the solenoid still click? If it does, it is because of inadequate current I think.

My milano used to click a lot. Even after I rebuilt it, it would click. I installed a relay from the starter switch to the solenoid and it never had a non-start issue again.

[DP]

When it's warm - usually. Since rebuild, it's cold too. HOWEVER, today it's starting and running like normal. Several time, cold AND hot. Enough to drive one mad. I'm going to buy some contact cleaner and go through the connections again - see what happens.

Just flippin' odd I tell ya!

I'm thinking you're right Zamani. Would you mind sending me a little sketch of what you did? don@dpapa.com.... that'd be great if you could.

I just want to start concentrating on breaking in the motor properly.... one thing that's different is the timing belt rides on the front of the cam pulleys now - used to ride towards the motor side but more or less centered. Now the passenger side hangs-off the front about a millimeter or less. Ever seen this???

Hey Zamani, also, please email me some photos of your intake.
Thanks!
Don

[DP]

Sometimes it will click - but then that means it will turn over and start.

When it doesn't start, it makes no noise at all just sends power somewhere and wires get hot. I'll figure it out eventually....

[Zamani]

DP,

Kinda hard to sketch and scan, but roughly all you gots ta do is to cut the wire which runs from the ignition switch to the solenoid. The starter switch will now energize a relay only. When the relay is energized it will in turn will supply the power to energize the starter solenoid. The advantage of the relay is that you can use a bigger gauge wire and the +ve can be sourced from the junction box. The path for the voltage will only be from the junction box to the solenoid.

[DP]

Maybe I should've thought about it first.

Very simple - thanks man!