ALFAGTV6.COM

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:47 am

I am curious to hear your thoughts on using a combination radiator and heat exchanger on the 3.7s...

Jes and I were going to run some nice new custom rads and then some separate heat exchangers (not oil coolers) to try and equalize the bottom to top temperatures as well as to cool the oil efficiently...

The race team will see stable engine temps but still experience boiling oil, hence the thought process for the two track cars...

When Jes found this one and it appears to be a perfect size for our openings... http://www.pitstopusa.com/detail.aspx?ID=42001

(Good enough for a Chevy/Ford V8 race engine - must work, no?)

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:03 am

JJ, I don't quite understand your post. A radiator is a heat exchanger. Do you mean you want the radiator to have a built in oil cooler?

If you need a big radiator, Andrew Garcia has them. He is not a good salesman so he probably never mentioned that too you (he is a great guy and Alfa Mechanic). I have seen the radiator he has made up for the Milano/75 and it's really good. It has a lot of capacity and it fits into the stock mounts with no screwing around, it's a drop in replacement. Expensive, but...

ar4me · Post by **ar4me** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:59 pm

Greg,

It is a radiator with built-in heat-exchanger (between oil and coolant). Technically, it is not an oil cooler, but serves to maintain same oil and coolant temp. Effectively though, it will serve to cool the oil in some cases.

This is instead of having both a (expensive) custom radiator plus a separate (oil-coolant) heat-exchanger.

Jes

Post by **Michael** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:30 pm

And it will heat the oil when the engine is cold since the coolant heats up much quicker than the oil - a nice feature given how long it does take to get the oil up to operating temperatures usually. Porsche used this type of heat exchanger on the 944 but curiously, though the housing is also present on the 944 Turbo, it’s not actually used as an oil-coolant heat exchanger. They instead use just the housing to duct oil to an external oil to air radiator (which the NA 944 does not have). I understand that it causes some problems in the NA cars because the seals rupture, usually causing oil (under higher pressure) to seep into the cooling system

It would add significantly to the plumbing complexities I imagine ... I'd recommend testing the car on the track to see how high the oil temps get before making this mod ... and maybe just use a conventional oil radiator (cooler) if it gets too hot. I used to have an oil temp gauge on my GTV6 and even in mid summer at Willow Springs (in the Mojave Desert), never saw the oil temps get to dangerously high temps.

Cheers,

joey · Post by **joey** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:09 am

yep, i've heard of this aim to keep the oil and coolant temps more closer to being equal, but since this sees very little implementation, and as mike said, has been reversed by porsche, i dont like it.

i'm sure a system that avoids oil/coolant contact is possible, but it seems un-necessary to me. The fact that for it to work, oil would have to transfer heat to the coolant isn't such a hot idea. (sorry, bad pun)

a bigger oil cooler may be the go, and i'm sure you're already onto it with the big 3.7, but a decent synth should cope at high temperatures which i'm sure is soon ejected after heavy racing anyhow.

edit: forget what i said! 270 USD? thats a snap ! what kind of reserve does it have? the usual small plastic/alu tank fixed near the radiator? sounds like an awesome and affordable solution.. wonder how much that would cost to ship to AUS !

there are some radiator only thingos there for around 220.... hrmm

ps: thanks jes!

Greg Gordon · Post by **Greg Gordon** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:16 am

Ok, I see, a coolant to oil heat exchanger. With 7.5 quarts in a finned alloy pan on a N.A. motor do you really think you will need an oil cooler? I would think that unless you plan really serious race duty you won't need it.

Greg Gordon, www.oldebottles.com/italiancars.htm

ar4me · Post by **ar4me** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:16 am

Since the fitting for the radiator cap at the top of the radiator will sit below the top of the engine (I believe), it seems we would need a separate overflow bottle (as standard on 75). Hence we would either need to weld a nipple onto that fitting, or find another model. But, at $270...

Jes

joey · Post by **joey** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:53 pm

yes jes,

those prices blew me away... over here at www.capa.com.au and www.are.com.au any kind of universal or custom aluminum radiator is AUD$880.. the cheapest i've heard of is perhaps 550AUD. i'm sure shipping from the states will be bad, but its only 9lbs! (the plain raditors c.$180USD) i'm sure it'll end up a deal cheaper, and i'm interested in some brake parts too. (i will start a thread on that later!)

as far as fittings go, i'll keep an eye out for something in the range and they have a nice range of universal aluminium bottles there too, canton racing among others... i s'pose if worst comes to worst, u can adapt as you said...

as for the oil heat exchanger, obviously i concur with greg. The thing about chevs/ford, is that they're iron blocked, even headed in most cases, and while they too have around 7.5 quarts of oil, they're putting out at least twice the power, and thus heat as our engines on average i would s'pose. They usually have overheating problems in traffic, whereas our v6s are rather cool running engines, wet sleeves, nice sump as greg pointed out and are all aluminum alloy.

obviousily tho i'm considering a normally run AR 160hp stock motor, i dunno anything about what your beasts would put out. I guess the first step of action is to find if excessive oil temps are a problem.

ps: never equate chevs/ford with alfas again !!! no, whats good enuff for them, is never good enough for our babies.

joey · Post by **joey** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:22 pm

just a note for our international friends...

silly me in the excitement forgot that pitstop dont ship internationally...

oh well, dont despair, its also available at:

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/afco1.htm

(they also stock griffen rads)

that do!

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:51 pm

WHAT a bunch of BS! Now I am less than enthused by the whole PitStopUSA kick...!!!

- Three attempts now to "hit the offer" and try to actually acquire some of the products on their website has failed!

Prices are either not what they advertised, they are indefinitely out of stock or the products are discontinued, but they still have it on their website and they have yet to remove it.

Then when I contact the product manufacturer direct, they claim that they have product and that PitStop is not/was not authorized to offer the products at those levels!

C-c-r-r-ap!

Think I'll try the stockcarproducts...

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:44 am

I need an oil-cooler on my little stock 2.0 so a 3.7 monster would definetly need one.

Go for a regular air cooled version though, get a sandwich-plate with a thermostat and you'll be good to go.
I haven't seen any real race cars that use combined oil/water coolers, must be a logical explanation somwhere, either it's heavier or not efficient enough (same thing really).

joey · Post by **joey** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:07 am

junglejustice wrote:WHAT a bunch of BS! Now I am less than enthused by the whole PitStopUSA kick...!!!

C-c-r-r-ap!

Think I'll try the stockcarproducts...

sorry for the agro, but GOOD ! that'll teach em for not shipping int'l !!

pls, let us know how stock car are.. prices are v.similar IIRC.

junglejustice · Post by **junglejustice** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:29 am

Actually a buddy of mine runs sort of the low-end of the NASCAR type stuff (oval tack....) Any way, poking around the track with him, it was interesting to see that MANY of the nicer ones run these setups.... Save space and works well he says.

(They all run tilted backwards for whatever reason) and he was talking about lower drag - open air scoops - no seperate radiators bla-bla-bla....

Any way, yeah, no apparently it is a pretty popular product according to Canton and the guys at AFCO that I talked to... It's just the pitstop.jokers that have been dinking me around...

The heat exchanger versus raditor-type cooler is for sure the way I want to go and we were just thinking that combo would be good. I can get them, but the price is double what pitstop "baits" you with...

I have no room for a sandwich plate. The back of that short little 156 filter is already right up against the bottom of the alternator, so we are going with a closed-off "cap" from Canton there and then hoses out to a remote filter...

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:16 am

You can still use a thermostat when using a filter relocator.

Maybe not look at "constant-speed-round-a-near-straight-track" type race cars...

ar4me · Post by **ar4me** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:22 pm

JJ,

If it is really double, we could also consider some semi-custom combo from C&R.

Jes

ALFAGTV6.COM

Rad/Heat Exchanger Combination;

PitStopUSA BS

Re: PitStopUSA BS