Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Alfa Romeo ONLY please!
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by Greg Gordon » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:39 am

It's amazing how much that Nissan engine looks like a Nord engine. If you Milled off the Nissan script on the cam covers, you could fool some people.

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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by Giuliettaevo2 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:21 am

Thanks Brad.. :wink:

On my fetta sedan i'm using a bmw diff. it mounts to a special frame that is supported on the front by rubbers fitted to the original points where the gearbox would be mounted. the rear hangs also off the original mounting point. So it can fit under any transaxle Alfa without changing the metalwork of the body. Got this idea from a Cosworth front-mount set-up that was for sale some time ago, was spotted on this site. :wink: Here some pics of my handywork... 8)
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driveshafts are not finished yet... have to look exactly how long they need to be and get them made to fit. Will use a BMW half with an Alfa half welded together. :|
Drive it like you stole it...
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by MR2 Zig » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:42 pm

Will use a BMW half with an Alfa half welded together.
We call that an "adapter" :shock: :D
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by MR2 Zig » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:43 pm

Nice looking work too!
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by Duk » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:48 pm

GTV27 wrote:IMHO de dion > s13 semi trailing arm
S13 uses multi-link IRS. It does have a very aggressive camber curve (short control arms) though, so it can look a lot like a semi-trailing arm IRS when lowered or under hard acceleration (with enough grunt, grip and softness).
I'd keep the DeDion though. I think it would help keep an important aspect of the Alfa's chassis, 'cause Brad is quickly getting to the point where 'you' (even me :P ) would start saying "Why didn't you just buy an S13?"

Obviously the R200 diff is the logical choice from a strength, availability, ratio and LSD point.
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by BradGTV » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:53 pm

i need to make a descion on rear end soon, but cant decided,
the dedion would keep a big part of the alfa body, but at this point that doesnt really matter anymore.
the only positive i can see in keeping the dedion is having the front suspenion to match and can set up the suspension geamotrys the same as any transaxle racecar. but to set the dedion up properly requires new wheel bearings, adjustable watts linkages, sz bearing and the frame cut and welded.

but the irs offers adjustability of camber and toe, with the simple fabrication of adjustable control arms.

both set up will require adjustable coilovers at some stage and their is far more options for the s13 rear end than the dedion let alone cheaper...

i think before a descion is made i need to test fit the irs under the body and how 'close' it is to fitting, but fabricating new chassis rails or mounting points is simple...
79 GTV (sr20) 83 GTV (TS) 85 GTV, 76 GT, 84 GTV6, 91 164, 88 75 TS & 89 75 TS
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by Duk » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:06 am

BradGTV wrote:i need to make a descion on rear end soon, but cant decided,
the dedion would keep a big part of the alfa body, but at this point that doesnt really matter anymore.
the only positive i can see in keeping the dedion is having the front suspenion to match and can set up the suspension geamotrys the same as any transaxle racecar. but to set the dedion up properly requires new wheel bearings, adjustable watts linkages, sz bearing and the frame cut and welded.

but the irs offers adjustability of camber and toe, with the simple fabrication of adjustable control arms.

both set up will require adjustable coilovers at some stage and their is far more options for the s13 rear end than the dedion let alone cheaper...

i think before a descion is made i need to test fit the irs under the body and how 'close' it is to fitting, but fabricating new chassis rails or mounting points is simple...
If you are going to go to the trouble of the S13 rear end, I'll make the suggestion that you sort the front suspension out in terms of roll centre height and camber curve and keep the rear roll centre height at a sane level by mounting the sub frame higher in the chassis (lower the chassis not the suspension) than it is in the original car. Trying to have the rear control arms near they original/standard angles gives the best rear suspension behavior for these cars (the S13's).
The rear roll centre height should be higher than the front's and the RC height of the S13 rear suspension goes south nearly as fast as the 116's front RC height does when it's lowered.
There are rear roll centre height changing lower ball joints available for the S13 and onward chassis, but they just make the camber curve even more aggressive (and excessive) than a standard car's.

Some people say that the RC height is irrelevant. They obviously don't watch V8 Supercar racing and see them change the rear RC height as required during pit stops (and on much wider and much more developed cars, too).

Get to reading as much top quality material as you can about chassis design (roll center heights, roll inclination angle, camber curves, natural frequencies, damping ratios, torsional rigidity, polar moments of inertia, yada, yada, yada) rather than trying to hide behind a bunch of stuff ups with some adjustable control arms (static alignment is 1 thing. What happens in the real world is another) and cheap off the shelf coil overs (which most Japanese/Chinese/Korean coil overs are for the Nissan stuff).

*For others not familiar with the incessant use of 'S13' we are referring to the Nissan Silvia and 180 (240 in America) SX. Their chassis code starts PS13******etc. As is common amongst Japanese car enthusiast, the model is referred to by the manufacturer's chassis coding rather than the year of manufacture (helpful with the Nissan S13 because the S13 180SX was sold alongside the S14 models at 1 point). JZA80 Supra, GC8 WRX, FD3S RX7 etc.
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by MR2 Zig » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:29 am

*For others not familiar with the incessant use of 'S13' we are referring to the Nissan Silvia and 180 (240 in America) SX. Their chassis code starts PS13******etc. As is common amongst Japanese car enthusiast, the model is referred to by the manufacturer's chassis coding rather than the year of manufacture (helpful with the Nissan S13 because the S13 180SX was sold alongside the S14 models at 1 point). JZA80 Supra, GC8 WRX, FD3S RX7 etc.
Thanks for that! :)
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by BradGTV » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:40 pm

couple pics of the irs under the gtv, fits good but will need to be shortened about 30mm overall which is easy to do..
it will also need to be resesed up into the body about 20mm and the rear lifted up as it doesnt clear the watts linkage mount but once thats out no turning back :| but i think im going to go with the irs 8)
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by BradGTV » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:45 pm

few more
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by MD » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:37 pm

Brad

I gotta say that this project is making less sense to me as its going along. Yes there is going to be a lot of learning taking place and equally a lot of unproven (let's reinvent the wheel issues) that you will need to resolve for the car to be competitive. There is so much Jap stuff heading for the Italian shell that my head is spinning trying to work out what is who.

If you want to run Jap mechanicals, fine, cut the friggin Alfetta shell floor out and fit it over your Jap floor with all its fittings intact that will carry the engine , box and suspension as it was originally made. You now have Italian appearance on Jap mechancials.

All this mechanical cut and paste is going to give you heart burn down the track. Guaranteed.
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by BradGTV » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:59 am

mike,
you are entilted to your opinion and i expected people to dissagree with my project.

yes i could get an alfetta, but i bought this car for $700 and if i didnt it would still be rusting away in paddock. if you have a look at my signature i have enough alfas as it is. this is an experimental and a learning experience, i will learn from mistakes and take the good from this project. this was the car in the worst condition but also at the time the best suited to a track car. what the car turns out like is yet to be seen, but as i can do most work for the cost of materials and time its the cheapest / best possible way to learn. and in a couple years when the car has finished its development and i get bored with it i will wreck it and make my money back.

as seen i originally planned for more simple build keeping with interchangble alfa parts, but being young (remeber im 17 :wink: ) i also appreciate japanese cars and drifting so have decided to combine my love of the styling of the gtv with the performance and reliability of japanese parts.

my mates that are into cars (all older than myself) have built extremly compedative circuit, drift and hillclimb cars in their back yards with extremly low budgets, at the end of the day they get out and enjoy their cars and most of the time out run high budget / proffesionaly build cars... (much to their owners frustration 8) )

to cap of, its a learning expericnce. my 83 gtv seen previously in this thread is now going to be my daily driver and my 'new' 75 ts is going to be the donor for its running gear. This car i will enjoy as a transaxle ALFA ROMEO every day of the week, (if it doesnt break down :mrgreen: ) i hope you can understand what im saying.


merry christmas all.
cheers, brad
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by MD » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Hi Brad,

No one is trying to kill off your enthusiasm however when you post here you expect some feedback and so I gave you mine.Often people are disappointed when they don't get any !

Just to recap. Your GTV is an Alfetta. You misunderstood my intent.
I will refine my advice.
Anybody can slap a pile of parts together to make some sort of vehicle. The challenge for your learning (if you have a passion for Alfa)is to stay within reasonable boundaries of Alfa parts to homolgate or indeed make your own part to modify and improve the breed. That way when the car is finished, it is still one make and something to admire and ponder over.

When it's a hybrid orphan, it has no brand loyalty and for all intent and purpose it gets little recognition unless it is an exceptional circumstance like when parts are simply used for a new invention. There are exceptions, the Giocattelo being one.

http://alfasud.alfisti.net/gioe.html

Anyway mate as you say you are only young and so there is plenty of time to learn from your efforts. I was just trying to save you some pain.
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by Duk » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:22 pm

MD wrote:When it's a hybrid orphan, it has no brand loyalty and for all intent and purpose it gets little recognition unless it is an exceptional circumstance like when parts are simply used for a new invention.
That is a good point, MD. It's funny though, there always seams to be more acceptance if someone goes to the (MASSIVE) trouble of making parts from scratch versus using parts from another brand. It always seams more evident when people start to use or suggest using parts from Japanese cars (from what I've seen over the years and not just in this instance). Maybe that's just my interpretation.
I do wonder about the response from people if Brad had shown drawings from some suspension modeling software and the early stages of custom fabrication.........
BradGTV wrote:couple pics of the irs under the gtv, fits good but will need to be shortened about 30mm overall which is easy to do..
Brad, are you saying that the track width is to wide? Judging by the pictures it is wider than the Alfa's. How about make the front track width wider with longer suspension arms and get that advantage?
BradGTV wrote:it will also need to be resesed up into the body about 20mm and the rear lifted up as it doesnt clear the watts linkage mount but once thats out no turning back :| but i think im going to go with the irs 8)
Be sure to link your roll cage to the chassis pick up points for the subframe and definitely to the spring towers (probably don't really need 'towers' just solid attachments to the roll cage).
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Re: Turbocharged 79' GTV - Track Car Build

Post by BradGTV » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:26 am

thanks for the feedback MD and Duk.
ive made the descion that the rear end will be dedion set as per Remco's images above.
if the irs was fitted it would have been put where it fits and not set up to match the front roll centres as Duk suggested, at this stage my knoweldge isnt up to that level yet, so in the long run it will be easier to set up a good handling car using the dedion.
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