Twin Spark Engines

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MD
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Twin Spark Engines

Post by MD » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:19 pm

One for the engine Gurus out there.

I would appreciate some advice. I am referring to the 2.0 litre version of these engines. I understand that they are produced in 8 and 16 valve configuration.

As I am trying to buy one of these suckers, I need to know which car they came from, some idea of power differences and particularly if the 16 valve version is capable of being fitted to a rear wheel drive configuration into a 116 chassis for racing purposes.

Anyone who has done this already, I would appreciate an email from you. Cheers, MD
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Post by Mats » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:07 pm

Did you read the TS thread already? That one should straighten out some question marks for you...

Link to thread

the 16v TS engine is TS by name only, the second plug is a smaller one that sits to one side and fires something like 180 degrees later to burn off any unburnt fuel, probably an emission/marketing thing, will do you no good for power. In fact the new JTS doesn't even have a second plug...
The 155 Q4 engine should be nice though as it has all the good stuff and realtively few drawbacks, balance shafts are really the only drawback I can see and they are easily removed.
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GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
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Post by MD » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:06 am

Mats, brilliant link. Read it cover to cover but I still dont get a clear picture that emerges.

Whats the bottom line here? What head goes with what block for the biggest bang for the buck? (naturally aspirated)

The lingering question I have is :

Should you try to make a 16V 155 engine adaptable for rear wheel drive by modifying sumps and bellhousings OR use a TS engine out of a 75 and stick a 155 16V head on it? would appreciate clarity on this.

I also have a niggling residual question.

Forgetting about the need for street cars having to meet air pollution control requirements for a moment and thinking purely racing application. The old "dirty" 105 2 litre engine made 150 bhp with carbs. 30 years later and four more valves and injection with slightly more cc's,the TS 16V makes the same power. I don't call that progress.

I need to be convinced that ultimately there is a greater potential to make lots more power from a TS and still keeping it naturally aspirated than there is from the "old" engines hence the purpose behind all this stuffing around?

Can somebody confirm this with real numbers please?
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Post by Mats » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:13 am

You can start by showing me some real numbers on that 150Hp 105 Nord engine, like Jim has explained a bunch of times it never existed. :wink:
The old carb Nord has 130 Hp on a very good day, the 16v engines (by the way, thats eight more valves :wink: ) has to deal with emission control, that means mixture control, catalysts, noise, etc. and they handle that very nice, the new 16v TS (as the ones in the 147/156/166/916 not JTS) is a fantastic engine with a very drivable torque curve and it would absolutely haul ass in standard form in a race car. :twisted:
Pity they're so expensive and complicated to fit, it's pretty bulky and is designed to fit in a FWD layout... :roll:

Oh, there is quite a lot more to do to the 16v engine then sump and bellhousing to make it work in a 116 car, not an easy task. It is an entirely different engine, this also means that the head is nowhere near a bolt on fit on the old TS wet-liner blocks.
Engineering wise it is one of those things that "If you have to ask how to do it, don't do it" :lol: :wink:

The TS out of a 75 is by far the easiest way to get good performance, almost all the features of the 155 8v but none of its drawbacks. A well built 75 TS with the right pistons, cams and good fuel/spark management makes over 200Hp reliably. Naturally there are some tricks in there too but not nearly as much as in the case with the 16v engine.
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GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
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Post by Micke » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:15 pm

I've benched some 2.0 Nord engines. Stock they give about 112-118 hp in the Dyno I use.
I'm not really impressed of them and tuning for more than 180 hp is a lot of work.

Depending on rules the 8V TS can be a really good choice. If 4V/cyl doesn't get any penalty (like VLN on the Ring) you must use a 16V.
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Post by MD » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:41 am

Mats

..an extra 4 valves..what was I thinking ?? !! :( probably typing faster than the brain was working.

Some good info there which is appreciated. Seems like the 75 TS would be the concesus.

Just for the hell of it, I will try to find my original info for you Mats. Had a quick look but can't seem to place my hands on the info at the moment. What I did find is info from two "Haynes" workshop manuals published about 6 years apart but referring to the same engine. The manuals quote 130bhp @ 5400 rpm for the 1962cc engine on a CR of 9.0:1 This is consistent with a drop in output power for these engines which were modified in cam profiles and a drop in compression ratio to comply with emission controls requirements at the time.
The price for this emission compliance was a loss of output power compared to the earlier engines from the 105 cars of the same capacity. So this is what I will try and source for you but it seems I will need to dig a bit longer.
I know this to be a practical fact because I used to burn off all the new 116 gtvs with my 2litre 105 in standard and original trim all the time. So the 105 had to make more than 130 bhp to do that. (other factors aside)
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Post by Micke » Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:57 pm

"So the 105 had to make more than 130 bhp to do that"

Nope.

The 105 was lighter and has much less inertia in the flywheels.
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Post by Mats » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:40 pm

How about gearing? Surely that is more interesting then inertia?
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Post by fedezyl » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:43 pm

I'm also very interested in the idea, i've toyed around the idea on my head of putting a 2 liter Twin Spark 16v from a 146 Ti or 145 QV in a Giulietta, how hard could it be?
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Post by Micke » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:24 pm

A 105 has almost identical gaer ratios to the 116 cars. Also the 2000 GTV had the same diff ratio of 41/10 as the Alfetta or GTV 2.0.
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Post by SydneyJules » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:26 pm

There's a Sydney guy who is building newer motors into his 116 GTV, after having worked for the distributor for a few years. He's had the 16vs apart, and Ive heard alot of talk of "rubbish rubbish rubbish" in regards to the internals. He certainly claims an 8v 75 style TS with porting will get the job done, and do it with a better bottom end.

I dont know what the earlier 145/6 16v engines are like.

Mark Pap now has his TS (my old one haha) running around 8:1 with 15psi going into it from a GT28, and he is showing 500hp chevs where to go down the straight. Speedweek, SBS, on Sundays for any AussieAlfisti- check it out MD.

From an efficiency of conversion POV, buying a 116 4 cyl and bolting one up rocks- the mounts line up, and I think the front half of tailshaft needs changing. Stuff all the belhousing, sump and crossmember fiddlies for an extra 8 valves!

The other factor is getting a 155TS motor to Australia.... 75 TS motors are ALOT easier to come by.

You want Naturally aspirated? Compression and Throttle bodies from Injection Perfection will work wonders, and get it running with an aftermarket ECU- they'll all fire one these days- not like 5 years ago where you had to go Haltech-Autronic-Motec and spend big bucks. AH Motorsports also sell manifold adapters for TBs.

I still think my ultimate race car looks like a GT Jr with an 8v Turbo TS in it. Cant beat the value
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by Mats » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:49 am

SydneyJules wrote:There's a Sydney guy who is building newer motors into his 116 GTV, after having worked for the distributor for a few years. He's had the 16vs apart, and Ive heard alot of talk of "rubbish rubbish rubbish" in regards to the internals. He certainly claims an 8v 75 style TS with porting will get the job done, and do it with a better bottom end.
I guess he got the wrong type 16v then, the new modular ones are the ones throwing rods, the old Fiat type is heaven (as seen in 155 Supertoruing/BTCC)... :D
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Post by SydneyJules » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:19 pm

Yeah youre spot on Mats- Im pretty certain the modern TS engines he's had apart are all post 2000, 156 style.

It's not economical for an Aussie to get a 155 style 16v motor into the country- they're already around in Lancia form, and are reasonably price. The small(ish) Fiat crowd do some fun stuff with them, as does Vince Rigoli with his Datsun 1200 ute (8 sec quarter miles) There's a few doing the rounds with Quad Throttles and killer airboxes making 300hp in 124 CCs, and Graham Smith of FiaTorque's warehouse just burnt down destroying his 550hp 16v turbo 131 with Rally style guards on it, as well as a few customer 16vs. The F3 team of Ferrari shop Piccolo Scuderia ran a 16v TS motor on 4 plugs and won races with it. You can bet the $$$ spent on that engine were big. From memory it had a set of quad slide throttles and injectors squirting down the trumpets.

A 156 16v is still a $4k proposition. And you still have the mounting issues.

I guess the main question is, after the mounting hassles are sorted, and after addressing bottom end problems with a current 16v, say, a set of Carillos, oil squirters (7 series BMWs are a cheap source Im told), maybe a windage tray, and anything else you think would help, would the money be spent better on an 8v TS?

Im thinking a set of Carillos and a set of forged low comps in an 8v TS is pretty much the bottom end to give you 500+ horses in a turbo situation. Damn imagine that in a Jr :shock:
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by Mats » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:41 pm

16v is always 16v...

Forget about the second plug though, it's a small one on the side that fires after the combustion for residual gasses.
Emission stuff. Nothing for this thread then. :)

All the stuff you do to get a badass 8v you do to the 16v too, not that big a difference in cost if you don't count the initial cost of getting the engine.
Valvetrain cost will be higher of you upgrade it, same with valve and head work.

I think the 16 has squirters as std. actually.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-

GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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Twin Spark Engines

Post by MD » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:35 am

OK. Time's up. I gotta eat some humble pie (again) I can't get my hands on that 105 hp stuff so I am caving in.

Still haven't even got a greasy finger off an old TS donk for sale.. like not even a whisper. What's goin' on? You can't all be curling up to your spare old engines at night out there surely. Somebody must have one for sale..I'm dying out here. I'm getting seized knuckles from lack of engine building. Like man, I am getting tunnel vision instead of tunnel boring. You dont wanna see me on my knees do ya?
(It's not a prety sight anyway, when I am in that pose . I'm usually recycling a pizza and a six pack)
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