ALFAGTV6.COM

Murray · Post by **Murray** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:09 pm

I have built a MS II ECU and am trying to get my car (1986 GTV6 2.5L) started.The engine starts to catch (my log shows as high as 800 rpm) and then it dies.Following is what I have done:

- ECU wired to L-Jet connector using Peter Florance's diag.
- Fuel pump direct wired to eliminate that from the equation.
- Starting fuel only-input to MSII from tach negative (board is set up for direct coil control/Hall effect but I've left the wires disconnected.
- I'm running MT ver 2.25
- I took Steve Rosser's VE table and downscaled it for 2.5 vs 3.0L -factor of .83
-I don't yet have a TPS so I disconnected my throttle switch.
-I disconnected my cold start injector plug.
-I have verified ignition working with a timing light.

I used Peter Webb's suggestions posted elsewhere on this site for getting started.ie:
priming pulse = 2.0ms
cranking pulse @ 160F = 2.0
cranking pulse @ -40F = 5.0
injector opening time = 1.0ms
PWM% - 100 (he said to use this if flyback board was used.MSII has this integrated ?
PWM time threshold = 25.4ms

I'm using Greg Gordon's stage 1 Low impedance injectors 17.5 lb./hr.

Here are some screen shots of my current setup.If anybody can guide me I'll be forever grateful.

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:46 pm

do you have a flyback board?

only the V3 board has is integrated...not the 2.2 and not the MS2 daughter card....

using a PWM% less than 75% require a flyback board...and if i remember peter w. has high impendance injectors...

Murray · Post by **Murray** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:51 pm

Yes Enzo I have a V3.0 board so flyback circuit is integrated.

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:50 pm

Murray,I have zero experience with MS,but from looking at your fuel map-I presume the ve map is fuel??-the zero numbers are a no no.When the engine is cranking it uses these values to initially supply fuel to the engine ..they should be a bit higher than the next load site above..

Is the total inj open time-pulsewidth time..measued or adjustable from zero to 255?? Im looking at the numbers on your map,what is the max you can selct??
I presume its 255?? If this is so,I reckon your map is way too lean...As I said,I dont know the system...Im simply going on what I see and interprate

What is the red flag??That has to do with the injector pw...its important I think...
I have a MS from a local car here,but have not even put power to it..

You are welcome to e mail me as well..

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:56 pm

Murray,Ive just seen that the injector pw is measured and adjusted as a percentage of 100.So you dont use 255...In that case the lower load numbers are seriously rich ,starting at 55,53,58....if this is a percentage of 100,you are stuffing 50 % of available fuel into your motor at cranking...too much.

Unplug your injectors after a few cranks and then crank again,unplugged..see if she fires..if she does,and then peters out again,too much fuel..

I hope Im helping in my funny way here..

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:51 am

post please your msq file

how you have build your V3 board? step 50. b) in the assembling manual...triggering off the coil negative terminal?

Murray · Post by **Murray** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:46 am

Barry my VE table is derived from the file "fuel table dyno 172.vex" which Steve Rosser posted in the files section of this forum.What I did was import the table into Megatune and scaled it by a factor of .83 because his motor is a 3.0L and mine is a 2.5 - otherwise similar.I agree that the "0" values are weird and I don't know why they are there.MSII uses 12 x 12 tables and perhaps in converting from 8 x 8 it screws up.I can either plug in some arbitrary numbers or scrap this VE table and use the "generate table" function in MT.My difficulty is that in not having had a running engine yet I have no idea what the "MAP(kPa) values should look like at a given rpm so it's all guesswork ?

Enzo you've brought up an interesting point.I built my board to run ignition using my distributor's Hall sensor and controlling my stock Bosch coil.It was highly recommended that I start with fuel only to simplify troubleshooting.I asked on the MS forum if this was simply a matter of imputing a signal from the coil neg.(instead of hall sensor) and leaving the MS ignition output disconnected. The replies I received said yes.As you have pointed out it's not that simple.I would apparently have to add capacitors C30 & C12 and then I guess remove them when I transition to ignition control - the MS manual does not address this at all ?I think it almost sounds easier to just go with full ignition control from the outset.

IF I can get all this sorted out I'll post my .msq files for others to use as there are not yet any MSII V3 Alfa 2.5L installations documented which makes the process a little frustrating.It's much easier being a copy cat than a pioneer

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:07 am

Murray
it's not necessary that you scale the VE tabel...because you have a lower req-fuel...start with the original map from Steve

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:09 am

MMMmm,I see ....I would think converting from 8x8 to12x12 you will lose some data or it will be allocated to different lookup pionts..Again,I dont know the MS..simply looking at it another efi system..

The trigger input differs greatly between a coils back emf signal and the nice square wave the Hall sensor generates...

The coil neg signal needs serious filtering and conversion to square wave IF its not made to simply trigger on a neg going or falling trigger edge..

If you are battling with a full start up ve map,input the following as a start piont...

Using std injectors and firing 2times every full cycle,

Start and idle values--30% of full value..
At 50% load I would ballpark for 40% of full value,
At full throttle I would go 7ms or 80 %.

Thes fuel values should be good to start and perhaps rev the engine up slowly...

Why not go the full hogg straight away and get the ign running as well?
It would,imo,be the easiest..simply follow timing as a reference to revs up to 30 deg and 3500 rpm..

I need to get more familiar with MS..

Murray · Post by **Murray** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:59 am

SUCCESS

Thank you both.I installed the capacitors required for coil negative input and used Steve's VE table without scaling.Fired right up and idled like a pig but at least it runs.So now I can start figuring out the details.

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:03 am

congratulations!

ps: generate a new ve table...map values under 20kpa are senseless...the map sensor reads only from >20kpa....and over 100 you need it only on boost.

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:26 am

Good stuff....Enjoy Murray..It gets to be a lot of fun..next youll spend big dollars on Innovates wideband and then more stuff...

Murray · Post by **Murray** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:56 pm

Guys now that I've got her running (starting)I'm trying to get her to idle.I've read and re-read the tuning manual etc. and tried a few of their hazy instructions.I'm going to post my .msq and a log file and if somebody doesn't have better things to do maybe they can help a newbie out.
Car starts fine but wants to idle around 500 rpm then stalls if I don't give it gas.Very rich too.

enzo · Post by **enzo** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:21 pm

Murray

your idle control is of...try "solenoid"

have you calibrated your temp-sensor?

Murray · Post by **Murray** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:20 pm

Thanks Enzo I missed the solenoid setting option in the manual as it buried in all the other idle control option instructions.

I calibrated my stock AR IAT & CLT sensors as follows:

-10f 9500
+20f 2500
+80f 325

Help me get my car started...Please