ALFAGTV6.COM

[dan668s]

Your car is gorgeous! But what makes you think the shocks are going to solve the understeer?

Thanks for all the positiv feedback guys! It really means a lot!

Regarding the understeering, everyone I talk to tell me that the Koni-shocks doesn't work on the transaxel-cars. Appearently they are way to soft for spirited driving.

My experience also, is that they feel harsh and uncomfortable over small bumps in the road at low speeds, but when you really start pushing it they just become soft and making the front dip and lose grip....
I've had Koni's on other cars where they have worked very well, but I don't think they are suited for the GTV6/Milano and so on, at least not with the standard torsionbars...

I think that my very stiff front sway bar (30mm) adds to the problem of having too soft shocks

This is why I think a good solution would be to get some stiffer shocks. A friend of mine had almost the same setup as I do (rim-size, tires, front sway bar+++), but had stiffer Bilstein shocks and a stiffer rear sway bar.
This car handled beautifully!

I'm open to other suggestions as well on how I can reduce understeer, and preferably get some oversteer....

This is how my car i set-up:
-Wheel-allignment according to instruction manual (I think...according to my very good mechanic wheel allignment is good)

-Stiffer rear springs, and lowered about 40mm rear and front.

-Yellow Koni's front and rear

-30mm front swaybar with uniballs

-Wheels are 9x16 and 7,5x16 with 225/45-16 at the rear and 205/50-16 at the front.

[lucass81]

Too much rubber at the back maybe. My GTV6 understeers and has stock suspension and 205/55vr15 all around. You have to powerslide with this car to prevent understeer, specialy in slow corners. I dont know how much power your GTV6 has but with 225 at the back you better have close to 300hp. Try 205/50vr16 all around or if you have more than 200hp try 215/45vr16 all around. I think this cars corner better with same size of rubber in all four corners.
Anyway your car looks awesome, that 225s on 16" are wild. I´m thinking in goin for 215/50vr15 all around to make the car look better but not sure if its gonna perform better.

[grant]

Hello,

I think Lucas is right. The staggered setup looks awesome, but probably doesn't help an already nose heavy car.

I think your friend's car handles more neutrally because he has the stiffer rear sway bar. Does he have staggered wheels too? If not, that would also make the car more willing to turn-in.

The other thing, if you're roads are fantastic, go with the Bilsteins. You already complained about the Koni Yellows giving you a bad ride, so I'm worried that your roads aren't as nice as I would have hoped for.

I switched to Bilsteins - they are fantastic track shocks, but on a car thats only mildly stiffer than stock, it should give you an even worse ride!

So far, besides the shocks provided by Ron Simons/RSR, the best shocks I have found for a nearly stock transaxle car would be the stock Spica shocks! Everything else has made small bumps uncomfortable.

Also, shocks shouldn't have much effect on how neutral your car is. Shocks make a big difference on transient response and initial turn-in. If you took your car to a wide open space, and just started to do a constant radius turn, you would not be able to tell the difference between the shocks! The surface would have to be smooth of course..

Its going to eat your tires a bit more, but set the front camber to 2 degrees of negative camber, a little bit of toe-in, and as much caster as you can get. The Caster will make the steering a bit heavier at slow speeds, but it should really help to reduce your understeer on tight turns!

[MD]

Dan

I am not getting a clear picture of EXACTLY what you want.

It seems clear that you have various problems but if you want some feed back on what to fix, we should know what it is you expect. How you want to drive the car and for what purpose.

Otherwise the feed back is all over the place, much like your handling it seems..You need to be little hard on yourself here and forget about what looks cute on a magazine cover and what actually works.

Micke and I have had this debate before privately but I remain of the opinion that front track should alway be greater that the rear track to begin with. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh..

You have the opposite, start there.

[Fernando]

Dan just my 5cents on the tyre front.When I first bought my 3 litre it was fitted with 205x50x15's at the rear and 195x50x15's at the front.On my first track day I encountered a lot of understeer into tight corners.In the faster sweepers you just get the rear to slide more to counteract the understeer.

I then switched to 205 all round and first time out was amazed at how the understeer had all but gone.Car was now far more chuckable and fun to drive on both road and track.

One other thing sometimes remembering the Porsche 911 trick helps.Brake in a straight line and power out from just before the apex cut's understeer big time.Running deep into a corner on the brakes or too fast and a V6 will understeer.

[GTV27]

Pre my suspension upgrade I was running koni yellows all round with stock torsion bars stiffer rear springs (a variable rate coil), a 24 mm front sway bar and stock rear bar. Ran this set up with 1.5 neg 4 caster and nil toe. This was a great road set up and gave nice turn in with a bit of mid to late understeer but still ability to kick the tail on power in lower gears(has LSD).

People bag the yellows, but I found them to work OK with those relatively soft springs.

I tried a 22mm front bar and gained a bit more turn in but also some roll oversteer (in really extreme situations only), so think 24 was about right.

So to me, based on my own experience, I think that you could try a smaller front bar to see if that gives you the extra turn in that you are after.

The comments about tyres and driving style are also valid.

The last thing a relatively standard 116 V6 needs for handling is big rear tyres (but they do look good).

I've had a culture shock coming from a 105 to a 116 in terms of what the chassis wants from the driver. 116 will understeer like buggery unless you set it up carefully into the corner - esp with extra weight of V6 upfront.

[SlewofDamascus]

Brake in a straight line and power out from just before the apex cut's understeer big time.Running deep into a corner on the brakes or too fast and a V6 will understeer.

+1


David

[grant]

I vote for keeping a large sway bar upfront (have you welded in re-enforcement plates yet??) and fiddling with the alignment and rear suspension to achieve neutrality.

Right now, that front bar is probably way too large, but it will always make the car roll less. Not only is this more fun by most driver's standards, but it will also keep the wheel more perpendicular with the road at maximum cornering, which can't be a bad thing, right?

Dan Really should get some stiffer front torsion bars for sporting use (start with 25.4mm) and he could also increase rear spring stiffness with a rear sway bar and stiffer springs to get some of that understeer out of there. The staggered setup needs to go for track days though.

[dan668s]

Hello,

I think Lucas is right. The staggered setup looks awesome, but probably doesn't help an already nose heavy car.

I think your friend's car handles more neutrally because he has the stiffer rear sway bar. Does he have staggered wheels too? If not, that would also make the car more willing to turn-in.

Thanks for all your useful input!

Regarding my friends car that handles very neutral (with a light oversteer), has the same tire-size as I do (staggered).

I believe he may have a stiffer rear sway-bar and Bilstein shocks.

I'm not worried that the Bilsteins will be to firm or harsh, the car will only be used for spirited driving, and occasional track-days. I don't complain about the hard ride of the Koni's, I just think they are harsh on bumps on very low speed (less than 40km/h), and very soft when pushing hard.

I know the staggered look arn't the best solution handling-wise, but I also know it is possible to make it work with the correct upgrades.

From your advice I think I should start saving for stiffer front torsion bars and stiffer rear sway bar. I will also try to increase camber at the front.

BTW, I've played around with tire pressure to sort out some of the understeer, and it actually worked
I now run 30psi at the rear and 44psi at the front, and turn in at thight corners are now much better. However, at really high speeds the car feels a bit heavy at about midway through the corner.

Sweeping/long corners feels much more stable.

Hard braking at relatively high speeds (about 150km/h) is now totally stable at smooth surfaces. At uneven surfaces the front still loose a bit of grip, but I think that is related to the Koni's as they may be set to hard?

[dan668s]

One other thing sometimes remembering the Porsche 911 trick helps.Brake in a straight line and power out from just before the apex cut's understeer big time.Running deep into a corner on the brakes or too fast and a V6 will understeer.

Yes, this is very true.
I've found out that I had to adjust my driving style a bit when getting the GTV6.
It's a bit different than driving my previous 1999 GTV (916-series) on the track

[grant]

You know, if you just buy Ron's kit I think you'll be very happy if you use it as your "Fun" car. It's a great compromise between street and race. Well worth the money IMO.