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Mats
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Post by Mats »

Luis: Not even the car manufacturers are that short sighted, if they develop a reputation for making crappy engines that leaks compression and need a rebuild every 100 000Km they are going to loose customers, very simple.

SamW: New oil all have cleaning additives, if you change the oil as supposed to it will keep the engine looking great (on the inside), the interesting thing is that even though it may look fine the oil can be completely broken down and loose it's load bearing capacity. It can even have (highly likely even) less load bearing capability from the start and less temerature resistant.
I must say that 3000 miles sounds like a VERY short oil service interval though. Guess she likes the car. :)
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Engine

Post by MD »

Mats
How about all those engines running just fine for plenty of miles on mineral oil, wouldn't they wear down the rings in a year if the mineral oil caused this type of accelerated wear?
I don't belive this is the case. This is probably due to a couple of reasons. After the initial "bedding-in" period , the ring- to- bore fit becomes the correct fit. Enough to lubricate the bore without becoming a pump or cause oil blow by.

As I said, we use a mono grade and it is actually called, running in oil We usually run the engine in on the dyno for about an hour and then change the oil to a multigrade. This helps keep an eye out for hose leaks, oil leaks or are other unforseen problems that may develop after a major rebuild. Also gets the engine running at varying loads and rpms .

Beyond that, I can't tell you more but what I can say is ,if it works I am not about to change techniques just for the sake of experimentation and risk all the hard work of rebuilding a new engine.

How do you know that the manufacturers don't use a monograde running in oil in their new cars and change it to a multigrade after the the first service? Would make sense to me.[/quote]
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Post by ar4me »

Mats,

I think 3 kmiles is fairly common in the US - to the benefit of the service places and the oil companies :wink:

When we bought our 2001 Saab 9-5 wagon, they offered a 100 kmiles warranty on the engine if oil & filter is changed every 3 kmiles.

I think a lot of people consider it cheap "insurance" to change the oil often, but it is probably not really needed. Even at luxury brand dealers and oil change is often not more than $40, and then you get a free hand car wash.

Jes
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87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
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(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Mats
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Post by Mats »

MD: Ok, a straight-no-additive-special-running-in oil I can understand, that would make more sense because then you won't get all the additive they put in ALL other "regular" oils these days, like anti-wear and such.
But how often du you hear that advice? It's usually "Use a mineral oil for running in".

I'm going to look at this, it's interesting. If I get no solid arguments I'll probably use a high-quality synthetic and then we'll know... ;)

About the car manufacturers, most of them now have the first oil service sometimes after the first 10 000Km, I don't think any of them would use an oil that isn't what they recommend in their manual for that long, especially a straight mineral oil.
Think about all the different climates and such, the engine need to stay together even if you leave the dealer at full trottle from second one and stop the car with a glowing engine/turbo at home. Running-in oil, nah...
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
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GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
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Post by Fernando »

I remember reading an article about Peugoet where they take randomly selected cars,fully assembled,start them up and rev the daylights out of them to see if they will break.Cannot imagine them using a special bedding in type oil to do this type of test.Their reasoning being that if that doesn't break the engine nothing a customer does will! :shock:

My one Italian mechanic always advised us to bed in the engines with a mono grade oil of either SE30 or 40 grade.Use this for 1000kms then drain along with a filter change to a proper 20W50 multigrade.

I had a friend,whom I have since lost contact with,who worked in the research division of Total.He was a fountain of knowledge on oil and cars.The one piece of advise he gave me that has always stuck in my mind is try and limit starting up a car fir no good reason i.e just to move it a few meters when you could push it.He reckoned their tests showed that the worst wear and tear in an engine occured on start ups.
"Racing is life,everything before and after is just waiting."- Steve Mqueen
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Post by Mats »

That is one of the best piesces of advice ever, minimize the number of cold-starts. Not only due to the oil film and lubrication but when you start up a cold car you will have VERY aggressive gasses in the exhaust and if the exhaust and head is cold these gasses will condensate and start to eat away...

BTW, Truck engines are broken in on rigs, they are fired up and run up to temp and then they run the crap out of them on a dyno for a couple of hours, that's it, and these engines MUST perform for like a million Km before rebuild/scrap.
Don't know what type of oil they use but I'll see if I can find something, quite dense car/truck/bus manufacturing area here. :)
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
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GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
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Fris75turbo
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Post by Fris75turbo »

I use "Q8 Formula F1 10W50"!
Before that, "Selenia HPX 20w50"...
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Post by x-rad »

I used regular Castrol non-syn 10/40 for the break in. Also, I was not too shy about limiting revs. No smoke, no burn, no oil loss.....standard new rings, pistons, liners, bearings..
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Re: OILS ??

Post by Zamani »

Hey Guys,

I’m currently using LubroMoly 10w60 and I find that on a hot (90F) day at the track, my water temp goes to 210F. Oil temp is 220F with an oil cooler, was thinking Of switching back to 20w50 Valvoline VR1 synthetic. It has a viscosity oh 20.9mm2/s @100C, seems perfectly adequate.

Do you all find 10w60 causes the car to run a bit hot? Is 210F considered hot if you flog it around the track on a hot day. I didn’t want to use the word hot because MD would ask me to attach a centerfold but….
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Re: OILS ??

Post by Jim K »

I will assume you're talking about a 75 (Milano in the third world). Long ago, some guy proposed installing the radiator from the 75 TD model along with the twin fans, with minimal mods. This setup can still be found new on ebay if you look frequently -mostly Italian ebay. Make SURE your thermostat works by actual testing in the kitchen with a good thermometer. Do NOT assume it's good! On hot track days, I never see more than 85-88* (190*F) AT THE MOST. As for oil, 10/60 VR1 racing or Castrol Edge racing is about the best you can get. These have higher viscosity @100*C than any 20/50 oil. As a matter of fact, you can use 10/60 for ANY Alfa engine. A 13-row cooler should be adequate -although a bit on the small side for 3-3.2liter jobs used a LOT in the track.
Moving away from the cooling system, are you sure your afr and advance maps are correct? If not, they have a great say on engine temps!
Today's example with several items: https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... t=0&_sop=3

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Re: OILS ??

Post by Zamani »

I already have a 2.4 TD rad. So I’m going back to basics.
1 pressure wash rad fins
2 chemically flush rad
3 check VDO gauge, could be optimistic
4 check thermostat in hot pot
5 make metal plates to properly direct air to rad core
6 run lower concentration of coolant but more distilled water

Other possible things to do, install hood vents around header area (both banks)

Sitting idle is fine, it doesn’t go pass 190F, fan kicks it, and it’s back down to 180F fairly quickly.

I think oil temp is fine too, I won’t fiddle with it, 220F is a lot cooler than what other cars see at the track.
Dr. Alban
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