So, I still have to talk to Stewart Jr. at APC myself, but it is my understanding that one of Greg's kits in Cali. is now running one of the GoTech Standards that I brought back from SA in a GTV6...
Nice! Would be even better at some point to upgrade the box to a Pro unit and harness and to add coil-packs eventually!
Nice though! That simple little plug-in 700 dollar box with harness and a stock 3.0 starting map on it started that super-charged conversion right up! Now they can accurately map fuel and timing without messing with changing out the injectors!
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junglejustice
- Verde
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:19 am
- Location: Granolaville, WA
Greg Gordon Super Charger Kit Running GoTech!
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
Should be nice and simple for them to tune and get the best out of it, I'll be very interested to see how the kit dyno's without the AFM !
JJ - Hopefully I just misunderstood, but if you speak to the owner do please warm them that they absolutely MUST change the injectors though as the stock ones just don't flow enough - otherwise meltdown !
S
JJ - Hopefully I just misunderstood, but if you speak to the owner do please warm them that they absolutely MUST change the injectors though as the stock ones just don't flow enough - otherwise meltdown !
S
83' GTV6, 3.0 24v supercharged
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junglejustice
- Verde
- Posts: 624
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:19 am
- Location: Granolaville, WA
Yeah, I know - maybe though... What I mean is after Greg's Stage 2 injectors... With an A/F meter hooked up you would be able to tell your fueling right away and you can adjust it with the GoTech...
If you still run out (lean) then go bigger on the injectors...
The big-bores get thirsty and we have tested stock reconditioned injectors with 3.45 litres and they work fine! (It's your ability to feed extra milliseconds with the GoTech from the laptop that changes the fueling dramatically from say, simply adding larger injectors as a way to meet fuel demands...)
The flexibility in the map is where it is at (up to a point...)
If you still run out (lean) then go bigger on the injectors...
The big-bores get thirsty and we have tested stock reconditioned injectors with 3.45 litres and they work fine! (It's your ability to feed extra milliseconds with the GoTech from the laptop that changes the fueling dramatically from say, simply adding larger injectors as a way to meet fuel demands...)
The flexibility in the map is where it is at (up to a point...)
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
JJ,
Are you sure that the stock 3.0 L-Jet injectors @ 37 psi can supply enough fuel for a 250 bhp 3.45L engine?
The stock injectors have a flow rate of about.... 190 cc/min (at 45 psi, I'm being optimistic, I think the sheet I got from the injector shop shows that it actually flows in the 180+ cc/min region).
GoTech can lengthen the pulse width to the injector but that would mean running at 100% duty cycle (not good) to give the 3.45L just enough fuel. Even then I still think it is not enough. It would run lean. I'm calculating based on a BSFC of 0.47
I know you are saying "up to a point". Maybe it's because I haven't seen it myself, but on paper, it is way past that point for a 3.45L.
Are you sure that the stock 3.0 L-Jet injectors @ 37 psi can supply enough fuel for a 250 bhp 3.45L engine?
The stock injectors have a flow rate of about.... 190 cc/min (at 45 psi, I'm being optimistic, I think the sheet I got from the injector shop shows that it actually flows in the 180+ cc/min region).
GoTech can lengthen the pulse width to the injector but that would mean running at 100% duty cycle (not good) to give the 3.45L just enough fuel. Even then I still think it is not enough. It would run lean. I'm calculating based on a BSFC of 0.47
I know you are saying "up to a point". Maybe it's because I haven't seen it myself, but on paper, it is way past that point for a 3.45L.
Some clarification on that particular car:
That SC GoTech GTV6, not mine, was started with my (last open-loop) map for the verde. My verde has Greg's high impedance stage 2 injectors, and so does the SC GTV6 - not stock injectors. The GTV6 is running a freshly rebuilt 3 liter with stock compression. After run-in Stewart Jr has now increased max boost to 5 psi. He is planning on raising the boost further - dare I say fast...
Jes
That SC GoTech GTV6, not mine, was started with my (last open-loop) map for the verde. My verde has Greg's high impedance stage 2 injectors, and so does the SC GTV6 - not stock injectors. The GTV6 is running a freshly rebuilt 3 liter with stock compression. After run-in Stewart Jr has now increased max boost to 5 psi. He is planning on raising the boost further - dare I say fast...
Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Just to clarify, the Stock Milano injectors are unusable on a 3 liter with my supercharger kit with anything over 2 pounds of boost. That means bigger injectors are a must unless you are just looking to get sea level power in Denver or something like that.
My stage 2 injectors (the low resistance ones) tend to run out of flow at about 7 pounds of boost at 6000 rpm. I think good engine management could enable the system to safely squeak out a little more. Especially since with Gotech the engine's BSFC will improve so more of the fuel's power will reach the flywheel. In any case, I am just speculating about that, I don't really know. I am no expert on these newer systems. What I do know is 3.0+Stage 2s with L-Jet gives about 205 at the wheels with 5 pounds of boost. With 7 pounds and a slight fuel curve change it has about 228 but we can't add much more fuel because when we move the whole curve up it kills the mid range torque because the mixture there is already too rich. Plus we don't have much room to move it up because the injectors are already really trying hard (I don't have the exact duration).
Will Gotech add more power? I suspect it will, plus Stewart's car has 164S cams so I hope to see 240 rwhp and 250 torque! However I am very concerned about running 7 pounds of boost with stock pistons and California fuel. I recomend against it, but Stewart does know what he is doing, they guy is super sharp. He made a two big improvements to the kit, one reducing noise and the other an improved dipstick and tube for easier access.
I am just guessing here but I suspect Gotech would enbale someone to use the full 9 pounds of boost with Stage 2M injectors (forged lower compression pistons would be required as far as I am concerned). It's possible they would need Stage 3Ms but I hope not. Stage 3Ms are a bit more expensive and very few people have needed them. I have not even bothered to make 9 pound boost pulley yet. Even my dad's car would need an intercooler or water/meth to use that much boost.
My stage 2 injectors (the low resistance ones) tend to run out of flow at about 7 pounds of boost at 6000 rpm. I think good engine management could enable the system to safely squeak out a little more. Especially since with Gotech the engine's BSFC will improve so more of the fuel's power will reach the flywheel. In any case, I am just speculating about that, I don't really know. I am no expert on these newer systems. What I do know is 3.0+Stage 2s with L-Jet gives about 205 at the wheels with 5 pounds of boost. With 7 pounds and a slight fuel curve change it has about 228 but we can't add much more fuel because when we move the whole curve up it kills the mid range torque because the mixture there is already too rich. Plus we don't have much room to move it up because the injectors are already really trying hard (I don't have the exact duration).
Will Gotech add more power? I suspect it will, plus Stewart's car has 164S cams so I hope to see 240 rwhp and 250 torque! However I am very concerned about running 7 pounds of boost with stock pistons and California fuel. I recomend against it, but Stewart does know what he is doing, they guy is super sharp. He made a two big improvements to the kit, one reducing noise and the other an improved dipstick and tube for easier access.
I am just guessing here but I suspect Gotech would enbale someone to use the full 9 pounds of boost with Stage 2M injectors (forged lower compression pistons would be required as far as I am concerned). It's possible they would need Stage 3Ms but I hope not. Stage 3Ms are a bit more expensive and very few people have needed them. I have not even bothered to make 9 pound boost pulley yet. Even my dad's car would need an intercooler or water/meth to use that much boost.
Hey Greg, I think you are underestimating your stage 2 inj with GoTech, I am running that set up (stage 2 and GT) on a stock 3.0 with S cams and I am barely using the injectors at all, to the point that the settings are so low that I am having trouble getting the mixture right a low MAP settings. Maybe the SC uses a lot more fuel, but I imagine that would make tuning easier.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Sam,
You are probably right about the Stage 2Ms. However we need to keep in mind that the supercharger itself uses 22 horsepower worth of fuel at redline with 7 pounds of boost. Loosing the AFM probably gets back some of that but obviously not all. In any case I have no experience with Gotech so I have to quote conservative numbers. The high resistance injectors are the only Alfa products I sell that I have not used myself, so I can only make ballpark predictions.
Zamani, one word, Dynamat (or is that two words?) In any case he used Dynamat to insulate the intake port, intake pipe, and think he even made and enclosed a filter box with it. Of course this was before the secondary bypass valve was out which also helps. Even without all the Dynamat my dad's car is now pretty quiet. You can't hear the supercharger on the highway unless you really try to listen.
RZ, it's totally worked out now. Even my father who is the most critical person I know recently called me and described the current version as "flawless". Having my dad drive it around was the smartest thing I ever did, all those miles and varying conditions really helped sort it out. Your solid pipe will be on the way next week.
Turning the plenum around is not a kit option. I am not sure the hood will close, even so the risk of screwing up the throttle linkage and having a disaster is too great.
You are probably right about the Stage 2Ms. However we need to keep in mind that the supercharger itself uses 22 horsepower worth of fuel at redline with 7 pounds of boost. Loosing the AFM probably gets back some of that but obviously not all. In any case I have no experience with Gotech so I have to quote conservative numbers. The high resistance injectors are the only Alfa products I sell that I have not used myself, so I can only make ballpark predictions.
Zamani, one word, Dynamat (or is that two words?) In any case he used Dynamat to insulate the intake port, intake pipe, and think he even made and enclosed a filter box with it. Of course this was before the secondary bypass valve was out which also helps. Even without all the Dynamat my dad's car is now pretty quiet. You can't hear the supercharger on the highway unless you really try to listen.
RZ, it's totally worked out now. Even my father who is the most critical person I know recently called me and described the current version as "flawless". Having my dad drive it around was the smartest thing I ever did, all those miles and varying conditions really helped sort it out. Your solid pipe will be on the way next week.
Turning the plenum around is not a kit option. I am not sure the hood will close, even so the risk of screwing up the throttle linkage and having a disaster is too great.