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Mats
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Post by Mats »

So I guess all new cars have broken/useless WBo2 sensors then since they have them plugged in 100% and not let them warm up in ambient air?

I would think the major car manufacturers would know what they're doing.
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Post by 4SFED4 »

Mats wrote:I would think the major car manufacturers would know what they're doing.
Mats, he has NO idea of that which he speaks, at least with regard to tuning and UEGO's.

The tighter emission standards today (ULEV and ZLEV) require cars to meet relevant pollutant levels (CO, NOX & NMOG) within 15 seconds of start up and they must maintain these over the life of the car... hence the need for extremely precise control not only on start up but as an adaptive measure (read: learning) over the life of the engine.

All this talk of don't do this and the sensors have a long way to come is just well... more pollution! :lol:
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Post by ar4me »

Sam,

Ok, checked the range of the knob on the front.

In a simple experiment, with the knob centered and AFR of about 14.7, turning it full left and full right yielded AFR of about 12.5 and 16.5, respectively. So, I suspect this gives you sufficient room to squeeze by emissions (if your map with the dial centered is reasonable).

Hope this helps.

Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Post by Zamani »

It is OK to leave O2 sensor in, as long as the heater circuit is left connected.
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Here we go again...

Post by junglejustice »

Mats, point taken.

Brian, yeah, I really have no clue WHAT I am talking about here....

Any way, was referring SPECIFICALLY to the Innovate Motorsports directions for the use of their sensors! We have already had to replace TWO (Dawie's and one of Group 2's) due to people starting op the engines before allowing the LM-1 to run through its start-up cycle and warm-up the sensors AND due to folks leaving the engines running with the wideband O2 still plugged in the exhaust but turned off....

I guess that in this case then, collectively, Dawie de Villiers, Joe English, Alex Racz at the Carburetor Connection Dyno, Clive at Dastek Dyno as well as Innovate Motorsports engineers who designed and built the damn things don't know what the hell they are talking about either.... Thanks for clearing that up for us Brian with your simplified “…John does not now WHAT he is talking about…” clarification.

I recognize that automobile manufacturers world-wide somehow manage the issue. What I truly DO NOT know is if we are talking about the nuances between regular O2s versus wide-band/5-wire sensors here, or perhaps issues specifically related to the Innovate O2 sensor versus OEM units...

Brian, while you are in town for the convention, we can take a drive over to some of these folks and go tell them to get their collective heads out of their arses…
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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Post by Mats »

Brian wrote:
Mats, he has NO idea of that which he speaks, at least with regard to tuning and UEGO's.

The tighter emission standards today (ULEV and ZLEV) require cars to meet relevant pollutant levels (CO, NOX & NMOG) within 15 seconds of start up and they must maintain these over the life of the car... hence the need for extremely precise control not only on start up but as an adaptive measure (read: learning) over the life of the engine.

All this talk of don't do this and the sensors have a long way to come is just well... more pollution! :lol:
Yeah, I know, I think there are ULEV II standards now right? Volvos V8 meets those demands.
There are a couple of tricks to igniting a catalyst real fast, raise idle, retard ignition and open the exhaust valves earlier. I know some engine manufacturers (all?) use the VVT on the exhaust valve solely for this.
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-onemanracing.com-
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GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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Post by Scudetto »

JJ and Brian - from the innovate instruction manual.

"8.2 Special considerations when installing LM-1 permanently in the vehicle.

Do NOT install the 9V battery in the LM-1 when installing it permanently in the vehicle. In a typical permanent installation the LM-1 will be powered by switched 12V from the vehicle (12V switched on when the ignition key is turned on) while its power switch is permanently on.

Because the LM-1 automatically switches to internal battery power when it does not detect 12V, the internal battery would drain quickly while the vehicle is parked. To avoid this, do not install the 9V battery. The LM-1 will function correctly without it and will be able to record as usual. To download recorded data, follow the alternate steps described in chapter 9.

It is NOT a good idea to connect the LM-1 permanently to 12V and switch it on before the vehicle is started. Depending on the climate and the senor position in the exhaust, condensation water can form in the exhaust pipes. This condensation water could then be blown by the exhaust stream against the hot sensor when the car is started. The resulting heat shock can permanently damage the sensor.

To protect the LM-1 when installed permanently it is a good idea to power the LM-1 only after the car is started. The starter motor in some vehicles can create voltage spikes of over 100V that have the potential to do damage. Although rare, this is a real possibility and the LM-1 contains protection circuitry to guard against it. A relay connected as shown below insures that the LM-1 is disconnected while cranking. This reduces further drain on the car battery by the sensor heater and protects the LM-1 against abnormally large voltage spikes.

Connect one terminal of the relay switch and relay coil to switched 12V (number 15 on European cars). Connect the other switch terminal to the 12V input of the LM-1. Connect the other end of the relay coil to the starter solenoid wire (number 50 on European cars). When the starter solenoid is operated, the relay will switch off. In running condition, the relay coil current will flow from 12V through the starter solenoid to ground. The relay coil current is normally far too small to operate the starter solenoid."

Seem you can install permanently.

Don't you still use leaded gas in South Africa? this could be the reason some sensors have died??

Many OE manufacturers are actually using 5v wideband sensors full time - VW group, Porsche, honda, Audi, Seat, and so on.

Can we discuss more?
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Re: Here we go again...

Post by 4SFED4 »

junglejustice wrote: Brian, yeah, I really have no clue WHAT I am talking about here....
Well at least you are beginning to come to your senses! :D I have heard that is the beginning of enlightenment.

You are so predictable though... whenever your leash of knowledge gets short you just run and hide under Dawies or Domingos wing! :lol: Stand on your own man!
jinglejustice wrote: Brian, while you are in town for the convention, we can take a drive over to some of these folks and go tell them to get their collective heads out of their arses…
I won't be at the convention, I know, you must be devastated. Since you seem to have SO much experience with your head up a certain body part... you go ahead and take care of it, okay! :wink:

... tag you're it!
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Post by Zamani »

We should start a new topic on WB sensors and not crap on JJ's and Jes' thread.
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Post by SamW »

Good idea Zamani, I will try to rain us in a little.

It's Alive!

Jes, you win the beer, it was the ground on the switch side of the relay, DaveH helped me figure out where, then we had a little problem with the coil wire, but Dave figured that one out too (it is good to have electrical engineer Alfa friends!)

So she sarts up and idles, but that is about it, once you try and give her a little gas, she sputters and dies. I need to spend some time to configure everything and figure out what the heck I am doing. But I am very happy she at least started, I still have a ways to go, but what a good feeling...

Jes, may I trouble you for a map?
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Jes May Be Off-Line;

Post by junglejustice »

Sam, blast me a quick email at john@reginaceleste.com and I'll reply with a fairly recent one of Jes' maps... He was out and about earlier when he and I talked on the cell phones and I would want you to have this sooner than not...

Also, from what you are telling us it sounds like you are where I was a while ago - let it warm up and see if the throttle response increase - in that case you may want to go after the cold-start debur adjustment...
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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Post by ar4me »

I'm here :-) Sam, shoot me an email with your email address and I'll send you a more recent map.

Also, I'll shoot a close-up of my distributor setting so that you have a good starting point there as well - goes hand in hand with the map.

Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Private Invitation;

Post by junglejustice »

Brian, no class – as usual. Those are such inflammatory things to say; to what end? We are trying to keep things constructive here, while you appear to find some twisted personal joy in bleeding all over this thread with your negative attitude and personal attacks on Jes and I. Are you really that bored?

I thought that you and I agreed a long-long time ago to just ignore each-other's posts! What happened? You’re not even a GoTech user; why come over here and stir things up? (Cow-tipping in Ohio lost its appeal, or what?)

I am simply stating the experiences of others, who WERE involved in this and other similar recent issues, as apposed to say, you, who clearly was not… You may view it as “…hiding on a short leash of knowledge…” while others here view my contributions with more reverence.

It comes down to a lack of respect that you have and frankly, there is just not room for it on a volunteer public forum such as this. Take another look and then please allow me to cordially invite you to go and copulate with yourself if you are not going to participate in a positive fashion...
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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Post by ar4me »

Sam,

You've got mail!

Jes
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87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Maps

Post by junglejustice »

Sam, make sure to save the starting map first as that is still the map that Domingos loaded for us to begin with - who knows, it may end up being a better starting point for you than Jes' map. Then again, you have the same injectors that Jes has, right?

You see, I have stock but reconditioned injectors, which gave me 11% to 14% better flow (back to stock in other words then...) but I have those huge 50mm intake runners, mildly ported intake ports, the 50mm plenum and headers, so who knows what MY map will do for you...

We'll see.
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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