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SamW
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Post by SamW »

JJ/Jes,

Thanks for the Maps, I plan on reading a little more tonight and trying again tomorrow. I have Greg G's injectors, S cams and everything else is stock. I need to recalibrate everything tomorrow and then try the maps.

What are you running as you idle timing? I set mine on about 10 degrees before Top dead center, any thing less and it would idle poorly...

Next (first) time we get together, beers on me!
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ar4me
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Post by ar4me »

I set mine at 8 at idle.

On my car, JJ's map was off - way, way too rich. Probably due to me running Greg's stage 2 injectors (putting out more fuel). I never tried the map from Domingo, but different injectors can throw everything off, I suppose.

Looking forward to the beers 8)

Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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junglejustice
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Post by junglejustice »

Yeah Sam, that would be great...

Any plans to come out?
...to Alfa, or not to Alfa? That is the question...
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Zamani
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Post by Zamani »

Sam,

Even if your ignition advance is 0*, it should still idle smoothly. Either your dissy was not set properly and locked (and thus the 10* is actually A LOT less than 10*) or yout fuel calibration is way off, i.e. too lean or too rich.
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SamW
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Post by SamW »

I think I am going to try your map first Jes, since we are running the same injectors, I tried to run it 7* as the factory setting, but would run rough, once I get the Jes's map loaded, I will recheck the timing and see what I come out with. This should be fun!
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Sam,

A silly question, but have you disabled/locked the mechanical advance on the dizzy, with either a nut and bolt through the base plates, or the base plates welded together??
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SamW
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Post by SamW »

No, I have not, but I unplugged the vacuum advance, I don't think they is a mechanical advace built in, but I could be wrong...
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Sam

100% there is mechanical advance!!!!!!!!!

Have you read the instructions that came with the gotech?? :shock:
Do you have an alfa workshop manual?? :shock:

I'm amazed anyone would even try to play with programable engine management without even a basic understanding of how the factory ignition and fueling is controlled!?!?!

It's absolutly essential that you lock the dizzy so the ecu can controll the ignition properly.

You can drill small hole throught the base plates and use a nut and bolt to lock together - or weld it up.

Or replace the dizzy with one from a late 75 with motronic, or and SZ, as they both use 'dumb' dizzys with, no mechanical or vaccuum advance - motronic ecu controlls all of this, the dizzy just distributes the spark to the plugs.

you will go roung in circles if you dont do this, as the timing will fly all over the place, and could easily melt your engine if you run hard in 4th gear with massive advance, please please do this before playing with the ecu.

JJ & Jes- tell me you have locked the dizzy too???? :shock:

on the alfa 12v you need to set the gotech ignition correction factor to -14

then input 10 degrees advance accross all load&rpm points

mark the pulley tdc mark with paint pen

have an adjustable timing light connected to plug lead No.1

set the timing light to 10 deg advance

crank the engine with the injectors disconnected,

whilst cranking twist the (LOCKED) dizzy until they align

You will now have zero'd the gotech and the dizzy

Lock off dizzy, connect the injectors and begin tuning!
Andrew b
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ar4me
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Post by ar4me »

Andrew,

The milano distributor only has vacuum advance. So, by plugging the vacuum input, it is "locked". There is no mechanical advance in form of advance from centrifugal forces etc. That is my understanding. A screw or a weld will obviously provide a direct lock of the distributor.

To the best of my understanding, the ignition correction factor in GoTech is simply to get the ignition map displayed in true advance. You can try check you timing with an adjustable timing light, then go change the timing correction factor in GoTech, and go back and re-measure your timing with the adjustable timing light to verify it has not changed the timing. Without verifying I believe that should be the outcome of such an experiment. I can try tonight when I get home.

In my case, measuring with the adjustable timing light, I set the distributor (with plugged vacuum input) to 8 degrees, and then enter the ignition correction factor so that the GoTech map for that cell displays 8 degrees. It achieves the same as your procedure - synchronizing the "GoTech" displayed advance and the true advance.

Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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SamW
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Post by SamW »

I did not think there was a mechanical advance, I thought besides the vacuum, everything else was eletronic, I know that mechanical is used a lot with points. I do have the manuals, I was also told that unplugging the dizzy was all that was really required, besides, I like a challenge, and that is what I view GoTech as.

Jes, I was not able to test your map yesterday, Yahoo treated the map as a text file, but I got it worked out this morning, so I will test it later this week. I soent time cleaning up a few other items yesterday.
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Jes, yes you are correct - forgot you had a 75!

But the gtv6 uses the early dizzy with mechanical&vaccuum
advance, and they must be locked off! or changed to 75 dizzy.

I assumed sam was doing the install on a gtv6?

With the ign correction, in the software it's not clearly explained.

Yes it does align the timing, but it is actually the setting for the trigger point degrees reference.

By setting it to -14 you get a full 50 degrees to fire the ignition. if you set it to less than this, and then align the dizzy, you will be limited with the amount of maximum advance you can add, before the rotor arm passes the pin on the rotor cap.

If you set it to sat -2 then align the dissy, the car will run fine but when you add lots of advance at light load and medium revs, the spark will be forced to jump backwards from rotor arm to the correct pin on the cap, and will then start to jump forwards to the next plug lead pin, causing a misfire.

you always want the spark to be jumping forwards to the right plug pin, so setting -14 will give you plenty of room for all the advance needed.

hope this makes sense!
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ar4me
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Post by ar4me »

Andrew,

Yes, makes sense (to me). I think we are on the same page.

BTW, a slight change of topic, but of general relevance. What are the general thoughts of optimal advance for a stock 3 liter 12 valve V6 across RPM and load?

Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Jes

what fuel do you run??

I have plenty of map you can try, road to full race!

For full load at max torque rpm, around 4600/4700, i'd go with around 29-31 degrees advance, as the revs rise past this at full load you can advance a little more, as you've gone past peak cyl pressure.

for 5000 to 6660 go with 33 deg at full load.

at light loads and medium revs you can go as high as 40-45 degrees, or more.

Where you at right now, send me a map and i'll have a look.

You'll need ign corr at -14!
Andrew b
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ar4me
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Post by ar4me »

Andrew,

This is mostly a street car, but does go on the track. Anyhow, for daily use it runs on the best pump gas Southern California has to offer (91) - known to be of poor quality :cry:

Well, sharing entire maps probably won't work as I have non stock injectors. Hence, the fuel map would probably be off, at least that was my experience with JJ's stock injectors and my injectors.

I've been too darn busy lately to fully go through it. It runs well, but I still need to lean it out a bit at places - running it with the Innovate Motorsports AFR. Eventually, it was my plan to get it properly mapped on a dyno. But, there is a possibility a supercharger will go on and make that a wasted effort, so I'm in a limbo...

Jes
87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeat or do as I say at your own risk - be critical)
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Jes

Fueling is easy! I was talking about a good ignition advance map.

Supercharger???? better get a rebuild before it goes on, or say bye bye to the big end bearings!
Andrew b
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