ALFAGTV6.COM

[junglejustice]

Falcons, Escorts, old 105s... How about we stick to the topic of the 116 V6 GTV6 here and yes, Ron's spring-rates are quoted in kgs per cm.

So, up front - without torsion bars - even on a pretty light (for a V6) car, we are playing with 19kg/mm and 20kg/mm on the 3.7s - printed on the springs as "190" and "200' (per cm - a little more accurate measuring in the larger scale I suppose...) For the street/track setups you'll see "125/80" on his front springs for example - 125kg/cm rate (under load) and 80mm overall length (without load.)

While the rate for the rear seems stiff to the book-smart types - always trying to apply theory to real-world - we know that it works for these cars! Same with the front - they want a GREAT DEAL of spring-rate up there.

Another key factor is his shock-design and the valving tested to match the spring-rates and these setups specifically. Good point about the LSD though - Kevin - until you have the LSD in there (and bumped up to somewhere around a 50% lock-up), I wouldn't change anything else.

Eventually I'd go with the 4-way adjustable rear bar (24mm or 26mm) - probably the 24 on the GTV6 to dial in the last of it, but like I said - get the LSD in there first - it's going to have a HUGE impact on everything that happens from the instant that you make your brake-to-throttle transition, to everything right after the exit.

[kevin]

Thanks for replies. good to hear about other makes as well. I will put LS in first then go try again. Its amazing to look at set ups amonst front runners. There is a 3.4 24v Giulietta (gearbox upfront) that runs rons kit with 30mm bar upfront , 180kg springs without torsion bars and NO rear anti roll bar. This works for him and laps same time as the RS Porsches . Its good for feedback as you can try stuff and then compare to what other people experience and also save a whole lot of time.
Ben, its only now that I have put the 24v motor in and going alot quicker that Im looking for more "stability'.

[Mats]

The LSD will be Yaw-dampening whenever it's braking between the axles, i.e whenever you apply torque forward or backwards. That means it will keep the rear in during entry and exit until you break traction on the inner wheel, then it will start adding oversteer.
Think about what you want first, if you think it's understeering too much you don't want 50% lock.

And if the springs are made in Europe the label on the spring will be in N/mm, which is quite close to "Kg/cm", 0.98 to be more specific. But it's still not correct to refer to force as a weight no matter how many springs you have held in your hand.

[la_strega_nera]

Falcons, Escorts, old 105s... How about we stick to the topic of the 116 V6 GTV6 here and yes, Ron's spring-rates are quoted in kgs per cm.

While the rate for the rear seems stiff to the book-smart types - always trying to apply theory to real-world - we know that it works for these cars! Same with the front - they want a GREAT DEAL of spring-rate up there.

Get your hand off your cock JJ.
I was dragging up examples of spring rates known to work well for live axles, which by default are the only thing we can compare the rates for the de-dions to. The high spring rates on the rear are clearly to balance the high rate band-aid on the front...

Another point I'll drag up is that amongst the USA based 105 crowd its common to run 1200+ lb front springs with Koni Yellows, while the euro guys run much softer springs with bigger damers. Perhaps the if stiff is good, absolutely fucking rigid must be better mentality has permeated the US based 116 crowd? I realise that Ron's gear has been developed on the ring, but on cars that other than the suspension have minimal prep.
If we sort out the subterranian front RC, softer rates and better grip all round should be possible.

Kevin: I'd guess that the LSD will will get you part of the way there with your balance, and there's always messing with tyre pressures too.

Mats: N/mm, of course (blonde moment!). Fits perfectly with Kevin's measurements coming up in kg/9.8mm. All the motorbike guys talk in kg/mm...
Re: 105: Under power its fine, its really just forward weight transfer, its feels worse at speed though.

[Barry]

The LSD will be Yaw-dampening whenever it's braking between the axles, i.e whenever you apply torque forward or backwards. That means it will keep the rear in during entry and exit until you break traction on the inner wheel, then it will start adding oversteer.
Think about what you want first, if you think it's understeering too much you don't want 50% lock.

And if the springs are made in Europe the label on the spring will be in N/mm, which is quite close to "Kg/cm", 0.98 to be more specific. But it's still not correct to refer to force as a weight no matter how many springs you have held in your hand.

Aaah,professore...Matts,You are one of a kind..(good!!!)

[grant]

La Stregra, well said!

I got a long ride in an Alfabb'ers 24V Milano with RS kit, 125/70kg springs. Even with the 28mm roll bar, there was noticeable roll, I'm thinking b/c the roll center is so low and the rear springs are so close to the center of the car?

If just modified spindles were used with that kit, would the roll be reduced by a good lot or would it be negligeable?

[la_strega_nera]

The rear springs aren't really that close together, certainly not significantly more than other beam axle setups.
From memory (it'd be 7 or 8 years since I did the analysis) even on an only moderately lowered car an extra 1" in the bottom of the spindle made a huge difference, I think it pulled the RC up from 8 or 9 inches below ground to a couple of (3"?) inches above ground. On a heavily lowered car it would have to be 12 or more inches below ground, so yeah, modified uprights should make a big difference in roll. I imagine the CG would be around 16" above ground as a rough guess.
Another thing to remember is the quad cam cars have a higher CG due to all those cams.
Something I'd forgotten is the V6 tank being above the rear axle which really doesn't help at all.

[Mats]

N/mm, of course (blonde moment!). Fits perfectly with Kevin's measurements coming up in kg/9.8mm. All the motorbike guys talk in kg/mm...
Re: 105: Under power its fine, its really just forward weight transfer, its feels worse at speed though.

Do you have the std drop-stop bands around the rear axle? Bind in your super duper nylon setup ( Just kidding, you don't have nylon bushings right?).
What do you use for shocks?

Barry: Professor? lol.

[Zamani]

Grant,

Are you saying the RSR setup has more body roll than you expected?

[la_strega_nera]

N/mm, of course (blonde moment!). Fits perfectly with Kevin's measurements coming up in kg/9.8mm. All the motorbike guys talk in kg/mm...
Re: 105: Under power its fine, its really just forward weight transfer, its feels worse at speed though.

Do you have the std drop-stop bands around the rear axle? Bind in your super duper nylon setup ( Just kidding, you don't have nylon bushings right?).
What do you use for shocks?

Barry: Professor? lol.

The previous owner put poly through the lower arms but left rubber in the top pivot... go figure. Plan is to go back to rubber in the lower arms (can't justify the ride from sphericals) and poly in the upper for the lateral location. Still got the stock limit straps, and koni yellows.

[kevin]

Ls, will be in shortly and then back to testing with the whole bag of springs for front and rear. and a rear anti roll bar. Tyre pressures is something I am pretty close to at the moment. Zman , i personally dont get the feel of body roll on the road and its feels rigid(great) on the track. But thats my opinion. I do agree that I am running a 'soft' set up at this stage but I will get there slowly. I am sure I will end up with +_20kg's extra on front and back as JJ suggests from Ron.
This will become a hectic cycle which questions my relationships of ride height at the moment between front and rear. I am going to try everthing you chaps have suggested and see where I arrive.

[ar4me]

On the 75 Ron usually says 1 cm lower at the front (to the jacking points), but you really need to get the corner scales out and use the adjusters to balance the car which will then determine the finer details of the relative ride height. Other than that lower is better
Jes

[grant]

Yeah, Z, the roll was more than I was expecting. Jes was running race tires I think which would cause roll, but as you'll notice there was still some body motion, and he's deleted a lot of weight above the CG!

However, compared to my car with just the 27mm t-bars and sways, the roll was vastly reduced. I was drooling over his car man...stock 24V doesn't feel that fast from the seat of the pants, but when you look out the window....kinda felt like your hot 12V, just keeps building up speed. I think Louis' car could have been close to keeping up with some of the E36 M3's.

I think you should get 30mm T-bars or RS Kit if you are going to have as much power as I'm guessing you will Xp

[Zamani]

Yeah, Beninca's 30mm torsion bars, rear springs and shock should work really well. Mezevenf has it with dropped spindles, cambered dedion and modified RC in the back. He loves the way it handles now.

[ar4me]

Yeah, Z, the roll was more than I was expecting. Jes was running race tires I think which would cause roll, but as you'll notice there was still some body motion, and he's deleted a lot of weight above the CG!

I believe this is one of the pics of my race car with RSR that Grant is referring to.

See why I'll be adding negative camber? points prevented me from doing it earlier...

Jes