ALFAGTV6.COM

[cchan]

Hello,
I have just restored my GTV6 and have 533 miles since we took it out of storage. Last week I noticed that it sounds different and it is louder in the front passager side. We were at the CSRG race this weekend at Infineon Race track and my Alfa Buddies were checking it out. They told me after looking at it that it appears that my header has cracked. They are telling me this since the header bolts are tight and the down pipe where the header connects to the main exhaust (Flange) is tight as well.

I have the Custom Oval-port headers 2000 Degree Thermal Heat Ceramic Coated that JJ at Glenwood Motors N.A. sold me. We had to make some adjustments to install this since it did not fit exactly right. Phil used two header gaskets to move it alittle farther from the Starter and needed to bend (Hammer) one pipe alittle to make some more clearance so the starter would work properly.

Is this possible that my header pipe is broken? I have never heard of this happening on a new part before and the headers still look brand new. It sould be an easy fix. Just pull the header, find the leak, and weld it. However, why would this happen?

I know that I should have put on Flex pipes and this is on the to do list. However, I orignally did not have flex pipes so I don't think this caused this. Therefore, I am wondering what the Forum thinks about this situation. Also, since I will be sorting this issue out any recommendations on the correct fix as well as any recommendations for this not to happen again after we repair this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[GarthW]

Very strange that with new headers they didnt fit perfect..with the headers/exhaust its something you do right from the start and forget about.
Hearing that someone has used a hammer to bend the pipe to clear the starter motor is disgusting, it should have been cut, and re-welded for proper clearance. Whoever did the work in the first place has no place making manifolds i'm sorry, but thats really bad, its been stressed and cracked.
With my turbo V6, i made the headers and manifolds all by myself, clocked over 10,000kms with no cracking.

I would have just stuck with the standard manifolds for they flow very well indeed.
Or copied their exact same design but slightly larger diameter..?

Anyway whoever made them, i'd be asking for a full refund...

As for flex pipes they really have no place on a replacement header...no reason for alot of resonance there...? So flex pipes i wouldnt worry about..i mean a set of header pipes are so easy to make if the gasket, template was copied correctly, flanges should have been water/laser cut for correct fitment, should never be done with an Oxy torch by any means. Not saying they were, but there is no excuse for them not to fit first time...its like they never had a dummy block to go off or something..?

Goodluck in solving the problem...

[MR2 Zig]

You can get an exhause leak without the pipes being loose.

hold a single strip of copy paper ( not folded) near the various joints in the exhaust from the connection at the head to the back of the car....if the paper moves or you see any soot on it you will have located your leak. Make sure your radiator fans are not running. Better would be to use the sooty flame from an actylene torch, you use the smoke here not the flame so flame can be very small. Same thing, check all around all the joints. Something is not flat and needs to be fixed.

hth,

[bteoh]

The 24v headers are different to the 12v motors - they are oval and not round. I had a similiar problem with my headers when I got my motor from Glenwood. The intermediate flange was not sitting flushed and we had to remove the headers and send them to a machine shop to rectify.
No problems so far - touch wood

[Giuliettaevo2]

Have somebody to close the exhaust with a rag or something while someone else is listening near the engine/manifolds. The presure build-up in the exhaust will make the leak more noticeable.

[cchan]

Thanks for all the advice. Bottom line is it's leaking for whatever reason. I spoke with Phil and he is going to help me again. I was hoping not to have to tow it to Santa Cruz before I made at least 1,000 miles break in. However no worries, I still love my Alfa and these things are expected to happen. After all, it is an Alfa and hopefully it will be a discounted repair.

[Mats]

Very strange that with new headers they didnt fit perfect..with the headers/exhaust its something you do right from the start and forget about.
Hearing that someone has used a hammer to bend the pipe to clear the starter motor is disgusting, it should have been cut, and re-welded for proper clearance. Whoever did the work in the first place has no place making manifolds i'm sorry, but thats really bad, its been stressed and cracked.
With my turbo V6, i made the headers and manifolds all by myself, clocked over 10,000kms with no cracking.

I would have just stuck with the standard manifolds for they flow very well indeed.
Or copied their exact same design but slightly larger diameter..?

Anyway whoever made them, i'd be asking for a full refund...

As for flex pipes they really have no place on a replacement header...no reason for alot of resonance there...? So flex pipes i wouldnt worry about..i mean a set of header pipes are so easy to make if the gasket, template was copied correctly, flanges should have been water/laser cut for correct fitment, should never be done with an Oxy torch by any means. Not saying they were, but there is no excuse for them not to fit first time...its like they never had a dummy block to go off or something..?

Goodluck in solving the problem...

I agree 100%.

[ar4me]

...I would have just stuck with the standard manifolds for they flow very well indeed.
Or copied their exact same design but slightly larger diameter..?

Stock manifolds on a 24v in a GTV6 This is not something you just buy off the shelf. You are lucky if someone makes something you can buy (without it costing an arm and a leg).
Jes

[kevin]

Have you got a pic as I know where most of them came from in SA. Which starter motor are you using as some were made for new starter type which did not clear old starter type thus ''some one "' has done some fine tuning with the hammer.
Always run flexi joints as if you wack the down pipes on anything like dyno ramps etc the load is transfered straight to the header joint(where 3 join collector). All alfas including the new models come with flexi's.
The v6 engine sits 7deg off center and is designed to pull straight under load so if you have no flexi and the system is solid rubber mounted with say two hanger you are going to crack headers over time.
I bet the leak is where down pipe joins headers. problem solved with correct gasket. Check there first. Also as there are only two bolts there people dont tighten evenly and after a while it does blow silicone out .
Post pics of uderside of your downpipes as that would give good indication if it has touched something.

[cchan]

Here is a picture of the header that I have for my Alfa. We went with the silver one and as you can see they were custom built. We had alot of problems with the starter when we were originally sorting the Alfa. I think we are using a stock 164 starter with a special heat shield that was made by Phil. We are using stock motor mounts that have about 533 miles on them so far. Thanks for your help.

[kevin]

Yep, i know where those come from. The leak will be where down pipe joins header. Its the only place these types have ever leaked . just get long pipe and put it by your ear and other by that flage connection. you will hear straight away . If not put pipe in rear of exhaust and into car and lock yourself insde.
What gasket do you have at that join.

[cchan]

Just for my own information. Who mades these headers? We are trailering the Alfa this Sat to Phil's shop and I am going to share all this information with him. He probably does not need this information since he really knows Alfas.

Thanks for the additional information and I will find out about the gaskets and starter that I have just for my own information.

[kevin]

I cant be 100 % sure but they look identical to some sets that were made here in SA by Mocanbiquen chap. He made some for me as well which I have on my other cars. They work great with the correct gaskets. Sadly this chap was killed (not by an angry customer iether - just general crime). The last sets which dont cross over come from two prominent shops here. I dont make them but other engine tuners here borrow my jigs which I made for my own car. Whether they use them correctly that I dont know as the flanges must be firmly bolted during entire welding. I had ten sets made which went to my cirle of friends that race here with absolutely no issues. So they should not be any issues if they are checked. Guys who borrow my jigs might not and just send them out with out checking faces etc.
This is not my line of work as I am a civil eng. but just do it for hobby.

[cchan]

Hello, thanks for the information. Spent all day loading the Alfa and bringing it to Santa Cruz. Having a trailer to tow the Alfa is the best investment since paying $300+ @ tow is alot of $. Also, I finally remember why we bought another sports car. Alfa's are high maintaince. DIY with a check book is taking its toll in the slow economy. Phil looked at it with this tool which appears to be a stethoscope and he was not sure where it was leaking . He did say it was leaking alot. I thought it was leaking by the Starter since the heat shield looks like it was burned. However, Phil said that these headers get really hot as shown by the heat shield.

Phil is going to take off the header and check it. Hopefully it is just the gaskets but Phil told me that it is possible that these header expand and contract and they could have cracked. Hopefully, we can get this fixed along with putting on the timing belt cover this week and have it ready for the Alameda All Italian Day next Sunday 10/11/09. If not, we are just going to detail it and prepare to store it for the winter.

We are still just alittle disapointed that we have to do this with only 533 miles on the clock since we started driving it around this summer for the offical break in of our project.

[Zamani]

Chuck,

This is not an Alfa problem. This is a problem with almost all custom projects. Factory parts are usually a lot better designed and assembled. I bet if you had it restored to a stock 3.0 12V where you would use mostly stock parts, or stock parts slightly modified to work better, you will not face that many problems. Not saying you won't face ANY problems, but no leaky headers for sure.