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Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:47 pm

I don't know if you've seen the factory racer (75) brake cooling arrangement but thats exactly what they have, a small 'splash guard'~250mm in diameter with a neck (~60mm)tack welded on for the flex pipe. I will not resort to that until I break the new rotors too!!!

I've been seriously thinking about brake fluid recirculation pumps, anyone tried them yet? Do they render track bleeding unnecessary??
Jim K.

MD · Post by MD » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:00 pm

I see Bazza has been getting in the poo with the theoretical crowd for having stainless steel nuts and bolts.(half his luck). Well, it isn't exactly the same application but I use stainless nuts and bolts to clamp all my exhaust flanges together and have never had the problem of tension loss. Given the difference in the co-efficient of expansion of the mild steel flanges and that of the stainless nuts and bolts, one would expect a problem but it does not arise in practise. I have never used the hacksaw or the blow torch to take the exhaust off since due to corroded fixings.

..I do have a flatulence hassle from time to time but since I stopped drinking that Fourex, less people are actually staring at me in the lift.

..yeah matts, I know it's a braking thread. As for the beans, well that's another story..

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:22 pm

Jim,You got these in 15" wheels??
Im running 17" on std. gta discs,Lancia Brembos..Ferrodo ceramics..
20 hard laps at Kyalami (My car weighs 1400kg!!!! Yes,1400kg with me in it,30l motor and Im realy tonking it...Castrol srf fluid..
The worst I have is a squishy pedal when I come in after the session..and not that bad that I have to bleed again,let it cool off and its good..I do move the car forwards a bit evry now and again to move the pad from the disc while cooling off..
I dont run splash shields or cooling pipes..My front bumper is open to let fre flow of ir to the whels though..

Now the brembos I just did on the 15" wheels are Not holding up as I thought they should-If you look at this,the Brembo setup is identical to my setup..The car weighs 1000kg all up,15" wheels..Oh,and some race spec pads which will get the temps going a bit..
On the road to the track Dawie gave me some brake tests while he was bedding the brakes in ..I had no problem pulling my car up well before he could in the racer..

I reckon not enough airflow through the brake assy with the 15" wheels...

Im now going to fit splash shields with the cold air intake for some cololing tubes..

Ive not used the recirculating fluid callipers and master cyl. prsonally,but a Porche racer here has the full AP setup on his car.(the black 993 rsr in the movie I sent you..)This works brilliantly..Things are still hot,but you can see that the fluid is circulating as the reservoir has that dark milky fluid in it you normally find when you bleed the system after a race...

Hey Matts,splash shields keep the stones and water an shit off your nice brakes......you should use them...

Mike,You have used stainless practically and found them better from a siezing point,huh? My point excactly.....(do a search on farts on Google,I killed myself laughing....yes,Im a wierdo,i love shit like that..)

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:02 am

The 3liter currently has the Lancia evo 4pots (same as yours) and 16" MO wheels. The squishy pedal you describe is the exact thing I experience, have to pump 2-3 times to slow down sufficiently from a 165kph straight for a hard right hander hairpin, thats why I wondered if bleeding might help. I let the car coast to a stop in the pits for the last 10ft or so, to avoid rotor spotting also AND move it like you do (like we ALL do I suppose).
I'm starting to think that DS2500 is no match for this track of ours here...maybe it need something harder but I have a problem, I DON'T want to score the discs! What are my choices in material. I suspect that cooling may alleviate this but there's only one way to find out and its no 10minute job!
BTW, there was a black M3 2500evo at the track, the thing must have more than 400hp, was tailfishing endlessly in the straight, shifting 3rd to 4th!!!! He was drifting all fours on all turns allways on the rev-limiter, clouds of smoke, changing tires every 5 laps or so! I don't know WHAT they were doing but the damn thing wouldn't break!!!(9000rpm for an hour....such punishment!)It was NOT a racecar but the whole thing didn't make sense to me.They had a pickup truck full of tires and wore them all out...strange to say the least, but a joy to watch!
I don't care if they are the 'enemy' them f... are fantastic cars!!(and remember, over 95hp/liter in stock form!!)
Jim K.

Maurizio · Post by **Maurizio** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:50 am

Barry wrote:These are 10mm studs for gods sake....How are they going to break something?? Because they are stainless ???? Relaxation of what??

Relaxation of stainless bolts in stainless parts, no temperature problem, constant temp of 22+/-1 deg C . If you torque-ed them correctly and re-torque them after a few weeks, you needed to turn them a half to a full turn to get the same torque back. These were A2 quality stainless steel bolts. And yes wrench calibrated.

A cause could be the large spread of the actual torque due to the estimated friction. In this particular application no greases allowed and everything chemically cleaned for assembly in a clean room. (semiconductor industry). The problem occurred several times in different situations and was fixed with the nickel plated bolts.
For me from then on only 12.9 bolts for (extreme) high force or temp loaded applications.

Back on topic brakes

Jim, again fantasizing on M3's. Was at Ron's place yesterday with the dutch AR club, he was constantly talking about porsches, what is going on with you guys. Having nightmares when you are awake

la_strega_nera · Post by **la_strega_nera** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:55 am

Interesting that they suggest a 1400kg limit on the Ultralite rotors for a heavy braking cicuit. I've got a pair of Ultralites (The price was too good to resist) here waiting for me to get off my ass a build a decent brake setup for my car, however, now i'm not sure they'll stand up to pulling the car up repeatedly at Queensland raceway, but on the other hand, i believe that Warwick might be twisty enough to make life easier for the brakes (Have lapped QR as a passenger, haven't even been to warwick yet, and QLD guys want to comment?) (Looking at a set of US Brake F88i calipers with these 298mm rotors.)
The splash shields have always been something i've removed pretty early on. Yes, they protect the rotors, but bikes live with 1/4" thick rotors and no splash shields, so I feel reasonably confident in doing so. Just gotta keep an eye on them.
As far as the recirculators, my understanding is they self bleed, and the extra voilume in the system that they provide may help in terms of providing more fluid to pump heat into, helping delay the onset of fluid boiling.

Micke · Post by **Micke** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:11 am

I have the ultralites as well. No problems whatsoever. Ok, the car weighs 920 kg and I'm not heavy enough to get it to 1400 kg

la_strega_nera · Post by **la_strega_nera** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:21 am

Yeah, ok, mine weighs like 1450 or something, but I do have more than 500hp at the flywheel

Giulietta24vTT · Post by **Giulietta24vTT** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:12 am

la_strega_nera wrote:Yeah, ok, mine weighs like 1450 or something, but I do have more than 500hp at the flywheel

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:34 am

I believe track particularities have a great bearing on brake requirements/performance. For example, there's avery nice fast track in the northern part of greece where my brakes didn't suffer, as there was sufficient cooling time between hard-brake turns. Down here however its a different story.
I just decided on the cooling layout: a round disc covering the inside of the brake rotor(~215mm diameter) with a tacked on neck for the pipe. I will remove the foglights (never used them)and adapt an intake to fit there. This way, cold air will be directed to the inside of the disc where it will be driven outward by the curved vanes removing a lot of heat in the process(thats what the vanes are for). This should end all related problems and I may also find the DS2500 are good enough, I just have to route the flexpipe so it doesn't interfere with any suspension parts, hmmm. Nice project, probably will improve lap times as I'll have more confidence with a firm pedal in the end of the straights!
Maurizio, we like Alfas and we drive Alfas, knowing there are MUCH better cars around, its just a matter of preference sometimes, practicality for some or inability ($$??) to get an M3, or Scooby or Mitsu... for others!!I'm a mix of practicality (tons of Alfa parts,literature and a friendly-almost free-garage) and no $$ for an evo6 Tommy Makkinen edition Mitsu (although a friend is saving his in A1 shape if I can EVER find the bucks for it) the thing is fantastic! Come on Maurizio, get the blindfold out!!! Most of us are proper gravediggers! A 1969 GTA or something like it is a classic, but a gtv or a 75...it'll be a long while before you see them command a decent price at Christie's!! Even the M3 evo 2500 is considered a classic (only 1000 made)
Feel better now??

Two months ago there was a big car-show here and they also had a 1/4mile drag contest. This 75Turbo (467hp 1.8T) paired with a Maranello and beat him! Big f. deal! Does this make the car important, or detract from the Ferrari? End of the day it was still the 12cylinders all the chicks were drooling for and the 75 greaseball went home bragging...how important he must have felt now!!We all must know our place and a hobby is just that, doesn't make us better or worse than the next guy UNLESS we drive the SAME car on the SAME track at the SAME time and beat the crap out of them, THEN hell yeah we're better!!

Jim K.

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:17 am

And the oscar goes to........Hey Jim,howdy..hehe..

Micke,WHAT are you suggesting here...Hrmmfff..1400kg..!!

Jim,In this very same trhead a few pages back I posted stuff on the ds3000 pads...those things literaly chewed up a set of discs in a 1000km!!
But,Damn,did my car stop!!

Then there is that insane m3 trbo with 800hp or sumptin...crazy,but more fun than a barrel of monkeys....The video shows 380 odd hp without the turbo on the dyno...8:1 cr!!!!!!!and then they bolt the turbo onto that thing...
Micke,you know about this car??its from your neck of the woods somewhere...

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:37 am

Rub it in Barry!

And to think that when I was about to sell the gtv2.0 in 1996, I had 3 options for rwd cars: 75,M3 and 424. I loved the subtle 424 looks (1993 model), their 24 valves, Torsen diff and selectable 4-way suspension, hated the rarity of the model, lack of used parts in Greece and the VERY expensive dealership. Then, I loved M3 n/a performance (1989 models 2500evo), their infinite upgrade possibilities but hated their service and special parts prices. So, here I am with the 75, weakest performer of all 3, but I know almost everyone in the business, cheap used parts, literature...in other words I'm cheap!! So far in 10 years, I've put in ~33K Euros into the thing in parts, trying to find out what works and what not, could've got any of the other two for that, or both for that price!
On the other hand, this is a brake thread, dammit!!
Jim K.

Giulietta24vTT · Post by **Giulietta24vTT** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:44 am

wow , that is an insane car , the IC goes all along the bumper and is about 5" wide,this thing literaly smokes tires for breakfast like drugs addict- or better say Drags-addict) ...hell yeah you're piss%^& all over the Brakes thread Bazza:)

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:44 am

Chen,Have you seen the video on this thing?????? Its beyond insane..Ive chatted to the owner as he uses a simmilar sealing ring as we do..Had a problem on Hamishes engine not sealing..

This is a car to be respected big time..it will eat you and spit the bits out later..

Hey Jim,Look at the bright side of things..You could be yet another W**ker driving a Bmw,Or a percieved rich W**ker driving the Mazzer..
Now we are all looked upon as sad puppy`s driving Alfa`s!!

Ive just loaded the new software and firmware for my Haltech e11v2 and played with the Giulietta again this weekend..She is running so sweet...Everytime I drive her,I know why I enjoy Alfa`s so much....

Just to stay on topic here,my brakes are fine and so are my stainless bolts..

Jim K · Post by **Jim K** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:00 am

Breaking (braking??) all off-topic records here, In The above 105 brake pic, you can see the short swaybar link that can be used in lowered gtv's/75's, in place of the long original 116 one (unless you go Unibal that is)
Jim K.