Jim, I really don't want to hijack this thread so I will keep this short. That's my supercharger kit on the SZ with one variation, the plenum was flipped around to eliminate a lot of plumbing and the discharge port was configured to hook it up that way more easily ( I offer that configuration as a no cost option for those who want to flip the plenum around ). It runs Motronic with my Stage 2M injectors and a AFM eliminating thingy like one from Split Second (I am not sure of the brand), and a really nicely made cold air box. The engine is an otherwise stock SZ motor.
It puts out something like 220 pounds of torque to the wheels at 1500 RPM. HOWEVER because of various factors, like it was the first kit for a SZ, and the original shop putting it on screwed a lot of things up (in my opinion) it was quite a nightmere getting it done.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
As usual, Zamani is right.
My dad's car "SuperVerde" made 205 rwhp with 5 pounds of boost, 8.8:1 pistons and stock everything else. Let's say that's about 250 flywheel horsepower. Thats figuring about an 18% driveline loss (I am not saying that's the right amount of loss but stock it has 183 hp at the flywheel and about 145 at the wheels so it's what I am going with.)
Next we bumped it up to 7+ pounds of boost (no other mods except a resistor to add some fuel) and power went up to about 228 rwhp which I am calling 275 flywheel horsepower. It ran just fine this way on 91 octane fuel.
So, I am sticking to my claim that my kit can deliver 270 horsepower on a STOCK 3.0.
Now Ian's car is a different breed of cat. It's a SZ so it's starting with a lot of advantages over a U.S. spec 3.0. It has more compression, headers, cams?, and Motronic injection which as we all know is digital. Then it was set up with the plenum flipped around which makes the kit quite a bit more efficient and increases boost for a given drive ratio. (The downside is it takes a lot of labor to move the throttle, you can just about forget cruise control and installing an intercooler will be nearly impossible.) Flipping the plenum around requires a small change to the discharge port which is a no cost option. I sent Ian a few pulleys and I don't know which one he used but I suspect he is running over 8 pounds of boost. The big improvement is in the fuel injection. He has a device like the one sold here: http://www.splitsec.com/ . This not only eliminates the AFM restriction, it allows accurate fuel delivery throughout the RPM range. That's a big factor. The limitations of L-Jet are another discussion entirely, but there is a wall with L-Jet at about 240 hp on the 2.5 and 280 hp on the 3.0. Getting over that wall with L-Jet is more difficult than just replacing the whole system. Trust me, I have tried, my 2.5 is stuck at 195 rwph and needs modern injection really badly.
I am really glad Ian's kit worked out so well in the end. Ian's car is probably the most powerful SZ out there. The bad news is it was a bumpy road getting there and it was largely my fault. I was trying to make the kit fit a car I have never seen (we have no SZs in the U.S.) so there were some factors I overlooked. Worse the original belt tensioner I used was an Alfa timing belt tensioner. That was a disaster as I was the only one on the planet that could make it work. To correct these problems I sent Ian an updated tensioner design, tensioner mount and main supercharger mount. I also sent a new discharge port that doesn't require a gasket. I was afraid of gaskets blowing, which actually never happened anyway. This sending parts out after I sent the whole kit created a problem because it required the installer to line things up and drill some holes. To make a long story short the orignial shop couldn't seem to get it working. It's not thier fault, there were just too many changes. Ian went to another shop. This second shop did a great job. They changed the discharge port's outlet to point at the throttle body of the flipped around plenum, made a cold air box and added the AFM replacement thingy. The result is a lot of power. As I said, 220 lb/ft of torque to the wheels at 1500 rpm. I don't remember what the rwhp is.
My dad's car "SuperVerde" made 205 rwhp with 5 pounds of boost, 8.8:1 pistons and stock everything else. Let's say that's about 250 flywheel horsepower. Thats figuring about an 18% driveline loss (I am not saying that's the right amount of loss but stock it has 183 hp at the flywheel and about 145 at the wheels so it's what I am going with.)
Next we bumped it up to 7+ pounds of boost (no other mods except a resistor to add some fuel) and power went up to about 228 rwhp which I am calling 275 flywheel horsepower. It ran just fine this way on 91 octane fuel.
So, I am sticking to my claim that my kit can deliver 270 horsepower on a STOCK 3.0.
Now Ian's car is a different breed of cat. It's a SZ so it's starting with a lot of advantages over a U.S. spec 3.0. It has more compression, headers, cams?, and Motronic injection which as we all know is digital. Then it was set up with the plenum flipped around which makes the kit quite a bit more efficient and increases boost for a given drive ratio. (The downside is it takes a lot of labor to move the throttle, you can just about forget cruise control and installing an intercooler will be nearly impossible.) Flipping the plenum around requires a small change to the discharge port which is a no cost option. I sent Ian a few pulleys and I don't know which one he used but I suspect he is running over 8 pounds of boost. The big improvement is in the fuel injection. He has a device like the one sold here: http://www.splitsec.com/ . This not only eliminates the AFM restriction, it allows accurate fuel delivery throughout the RPM range. That's a big factor. The limitations of L-Jet are another discussion entirely, but there is a wall with L-Jet at about 240 hp on the 2.5 and 280 hp on the 3.0. Getting over that wall with L-Jet is more difficult than just replacing the whole system. Trust me, I have tried, my 2.5 is stuck at 195 rwph and needs modern injection really badly.
I am really glad Ian's kit worked out so well in the end. Ian's car is probably the most powerful SZ out there. The bad news is it was a bumpy road getting there and it was largely my fault. I was trying to make the kit fit a car I have never seen (we have no SZs in the U.S.) so there were some factors I overlooked. Worse the original belt tensioner I used was an Alfa timing belt tensioner. That was a disaster as I was the only one on the planet that could make it work. To correct these problems I sent Ian an updated tensioner design, tensioner mount and main supercharger mount. I also sent a new discharge port that doesn't require a gasket. I was afraid of gaskets blowing, which actually never happened anyway. This sending parts out after I sent the whole kit created a problem because it required the installer to line things up and drill some holes. To make a long story short the orignial shop couldn't seem to get it working. It's not thier fault, there were just too many changes. Ian went to another shop. This second shop did a great job. They changed the discharge port's outlet to point at the throttle body of the flipped around plenum, made a cold air box and added the AFM replacement thingy. The result is a lot of power. As I said, 220 lb/ft of torque to the wheels at 1500 rpm. I don't remember what the rwhp is.
Greg: I've been thinking about running your SC-kit on a stock 2.5L GTV6 with S-cams runnning on E85 (85% Ethanol, 15% gasoline, 102 octane) and VEMS fuel injection with bigger injectors.
What kind of horsepower levels can I expect out of a 2.5? And what is the max boost I can use? What about using the same reciept on a stock 3.0 or a 3.0QV (S-cams and 10:1 comp). What kind of boost and hp to expect then? /Gustav, Sweden
What kind of horsepower levels can I expect out of a 2.5? And what is the max boost I can use? What about using the same reciept on a stock 3.0 or a 3.0QV (S-cams and 10:1 comp). What kind of boost and hp to expect then? /Gustav, Sweden
Gustav Strandberg
GTV6 GP 2.5 '87 Street Car
GTV 2.0 '83 Race Car
GTV 2.0 '78 Junk
GTV6 GP 2.5 '87 Street Car
GTV 2.0 '83 Race Car
GTV 2.0 '78 Junk
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Gustav,
It's impossible for me to test all possible variations so anything outside of what I have done is just a guess. I don't know what 102 octane in Sweden equates to in our numbers. My understanding is that Ethanol has less energy for a given amount of fuel then gasoline so that could really throw off any calculations. I also have no idea what VEMS is, I assume it's modern injections like Gotech or Megasquirt.
Detonation is the primary factor limiting boost. Since I don't want to test anything to destruction I really don't know what the maximum is. With that said, I ran 7+ psi on my 2.5 for a long time using 93 octane pump fuel and never had a problem. With water/denatured alchohol I have run 10 psi (I had to back it off a bit because L-Jet couldn't provide fuel above about 5500 rpm) with no hint of detonation. We plan to bump SuperVerde up to 10 or 12 psi and with water/alch injection I am very confident the engine will hold together.
My guess at power (using gasoline) for the 2.5 you describe would be around 200 at the wheels with 7 psi and over 240 whp for the 3.0. Perhaps more.
It's impossible for me to test all possible variations so anything outside of what I have done is just a guess. I don't know what 102 octane in Sweden equates to in our numbers. My understanding is that Ethanol has less energy for a given amount of fuel then gasoline so that could really throw off any calculations. I also have no idea what VEMS is, I assume it's modern injections like Gotech or Megasquirt.
Detonation is the primary factor limiting boost. Since I don't want to test anything to destruction I really don't know what the maximum is. With that said, I ran 7+ psi on my 2.5 for a long time using 93 octane pump fuel and never had a problem. With water/denatured alchohol I have run 10 psi (I had to back it off a bit because L-Jet couldn't provide fuel above about 5500 rpm) with no hint of detonation. We plan to bump SuperVerde up to 10 or 12 psi and with water/alch injection I am very confident the engine will hold together.
My guess at power (using gasoline) for the 2.5 you describe would be around 200 at the wheels with 7 psi and over 240 whp for the 3.0. Perhaps more.
sorry guys a little off topic. just curious greg as to what sort of clutch super verde is running. you may have already posted somewhere but im too lazy to do a search lol. and do you have any information on what sort of clutches some of your clients with the supercharger kit have used. always good to know what direction other people take thats all.
patzo_3l
patzo_3l
Hi Greg and thanks for the answer!
VEMS (http://www.vems-group.org/) is a modern injection system just like Gotech and Megasquirt.
E85 has between 102-104 octane RON.
That must be around 97-98 "US-octane" (RON+MON)/2
Ethanol has less energy then gasoline and because of that the engine requires 30% more fuel. (huge injectors)
Running on E85 results in a lower combustion temperature.
That must be good against detonation?
more info about E85 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85.
I'll better start saving some money so I can test the kit with E85.
Good luck with your projects!
VEMS (http://www.vems-group.org/) is a modern injection system just like Gotech and Megasquirt.
E85 has between 102-104 octane RON.
That must be around 97-98 "US-octane" (RON+MON)/2
Ethanol has less energy then gasoline and because of that the engine requires 30% more fuel. (huge injectors)
Running on E85 results in a lower combustion temperature.
That must be good against detonation?
more info about E85 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85.
I'll better start saving some money so I can test the kit with E85.
Good luck with your projects!
Gustav Strandberg
GTV6 GP 2.5 '87 Street Car
GTV 2.0 '83 Race Car
GTV 2.0 '78 Junk
GTV6 GP 2.5 '87 Street Car
GTV 2.0 '83 Race Car
GTV 2.0 '78 Junk
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Patzo,
I don't have a good answer for you about clutches. Carefull driving is the key here. SuperVerde has a brand new stock clutch. It's OK, but with the 228 rwhp setup it's just OK, no more. I wouldn't say it slips but it doesn't grab as hard during agressive upshifts as it should. I think as it wears it could become a problem. Time will tell. My GTV6's clutch holds 195 rwhp just fine. My clutch was used when we put it in 190,000 miles ago! When we increase SuperVerde's power we will put in a performance clutch. I will have it made to spec in Ft. Worth. If there is much demand for them I will have a bunch made.
Hi Gustav,
That VEMS system looks pretty good. There are so many choices of engine managements systems choosing one is tough. I don't know how to choose one. It seems to me Gotech or Megasquirt would be the easiest.
Lower combustion chambers help avoid detonation. If the octane is that high you can probably run a lot of boost. It's cold up north and with that much octane, add water injection and you could probably get away with 14 pounds of boost. Keep in mind I can get away with 10 psi and 93 octane (r+m/2) in Texas heat. It seem to me that with fuel that has less energy you will have to burn more of it so lots of boost may be your best option.
Barry, sorry I have totally taken over this thread.
I don't have a good answer for you about clutches. Carefull driving is the key here. SuperVerde has a brand new stock clutch. It's OK, but with the 228 rwhp setup it's just OK, no more. I wouldn't say it slips but it doesn't grab as hard during agressive upshifts as it should. I think as it wears it could become a problem. Time will tell. My GTV6's clutch holds 195 rwhp just fine. My clutch was used when we put it in 190,000 miles ago! When we increase SuperVerde's power we will put in a performance clutch. I will have it made to spec in Ft. Worth. If there is much demand for them I will have a bunch made.
Hi Gustav,
That VEMS system looks pretty good. There are so many choices of engine managements systems choosing one is tough. I don't know how to choose one. It seems to me Gotech or Megasquirt would be the easiest.
Lower combustion chambers help avoid detonation. If the octane is that high you can probably run a lot of boost. It's cold up north and with that much octane, add water injection and you could probably get away with 14 pounds of boost. Keep in mind I can get away with 10 psi and 93 octane (r+m/2) in Texas heat. It seem to me that with fuel that has less energy you will have to burn more of it so lots of boost may be your best option.
Barry, sorry I have totally taken over this thread.
Greg, VEMS is pretty much a sturdier more competent MS, uses the same tuning software even.
The more I learn about GoTech the more flawed it seems.
Only problem with VEMS is that it has no logging function unless you hook up a computer to it.
The more I learn about GoTech the more flawed it seems.
Only problem with VEMS is that it has no logging function unless you hook up a computer to it.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-
Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Thanks Mats,
I am going to have to take the plunge and get a modern system soon. I am at the end of L-Jets capability.
When I start thinking about all these choices it gets mind boggling.
Lets see, we have,
Megasquirt,
Gotech,
SDS,
Autronic,
Electromotive, and now
VEMS
Down at Vick Autosports they have Italian cars running on Megasquirt, SDS, and Electromotive. They say Electromotive is the best one, but Megasquirt is hard to beat for the price.
I am going to have to take the plunge and get a modern system soon. I am at the end of L-Jets capability.
When I start thinking about all these choices it gets mind boggling.
Lets see, we have,
Megasquirt,
Gotech,
SDS,
Autronic,
Electromotive, and now
VEMS
Down at Vick Autosports they have Italian cars running on Megasquirt, SDS, and Electromotive. They say Electromotive is the best one, but Megasquirt is hard to beat for the price.
Greg:
Sounds like fun to try 14 psi and E85
.
How many hp can I expect to get at 14psi? (standard 2.5 with S cams)
Is there a simple formula for calculating hp at certain boost?
Mats: Are there any other good engine management systems in the same price range as MS2 and VEMS, that supports logging without a PC?
VEMS must be one of the better alternatives.
Sounds like fun to try 14 psi and E85
.How many hp can I expect to get at 14psi? (standard 2.5 with S cams)
Is there a simple formula for calculating hp at certain boost?
Mats: Are there any other good engine management systems in the same price range as MS2 and VEMS, that supports logging without a PC?
VEMS must be one of the better alternatives.
Gustav Strandberg
GTV6 GP 2.5 '87 Street Car
GTV 2.0 '83 Race Car
GTV 2.0 '78 Junk
GTV6 GP 2.5 '87 Street Car
GTV 2.0 '83 Race Car
GTV 2.0 '78 Junk
Guran,A very ROUGH rule of thumb...Pressure ratio = added Hp..
By that I mean 14.7 psi boost is a pr of 2.
A pr of 1.3 is 0.3 atmospheres added to std baro press..
This is not a hard and fast rule...remember to take into acc. baro pressure at your alt.as a constant for both baro and boost.
Now before this forum erupts into all sorts,this is a very ROUGH estimate of what to expect..There are a myriad of additional factors coming into play,but roughly,if your engine makes 100hp,at o.5 bar it should make 150hp.
I call this the twinkle or dream stage maths..
By that I mean 14.7 psi boost is a pr of 2.
A pr of 1.3 is 0.3 atmospheres added to std baro press..
This is not a hard and fast rule...remember to take into acc. baro pressure at your alt.as a constant for both baro and boost.
Now before this forum erupts into all sorts,this is a very ROUGH estimate of what to expect..There are a myriad of additional factors coming into play,but roughly,if your engine makes 100hp,at o.5 bar it should make 150hp.
I call this the twinkle or dream stage maths..