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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
I was all into those PWR intercoolers, now I am curious about this guy:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRAND-NE ... enameZWDVW
They sell so cheap on Ebay that I fear that they may be too good to be true.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BRAND-NE ... enameZWDVW
They sell so cheap on Ebay that I fear that they may be too good to be true.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
That's a Chinese knock offs of the old Spearco brand liquid to air intercooler. It's cheap however it's an older design and it's really really big. It would be tough to fit in a GTV6, a Milano maybe... I think the PWR design is better for our cars, but I am really just guessing. In any case the PWR is an easy fit.
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la_strega_nera
- Platinum
- Posts: 494
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:05 pm
- Location: Sunny Euro-Brisney
"The heat can be knocked back down to very near ambient"
Maybe if u live somewhere that you ambient temp is like say... 50-80deg F.
Get real! I am yet to see a roots blown car run low inlet temps.
The amount of extra heat you will make with 5psi would be wasted power that you are better of making with CR, save your money on coolers and water injection and whatever other junk.
Fuel economy? ...really scratching around now
Maybe if u live somewhere that you ambient temp is like say... 50-80deg F.
Get real! I am yet to see a roots blown car run low inlet temps.
The amount of extra heat you will make with 5psi would be wasted power that you are better of making with CR, save your money on coolers and water injection and whatever other junk.
Fuel economy? ...really scratching around now
Thanks Baz,
I dont mind that he hates supercharging.
It just seems that he hates it so much that he wants my engine to suck.
I am committed (already bought the MP90, stated early in this thread) to this engine project, better or worse.
I am not about to claim that my engine will be better than anybody else´s. That said,
You want to go fast? Scrap the whole supercharger idea. I don’t know who this john is but your point is irrelevant, his car isn’t for street use
There are some supercharged production street vehicles that do ok. Unless you are unimpressed by the engines that reside in the Ford GT or the or the Merc SLR...
GTV6GPTT, I have taken your bait. I am sure that your TT is very nice. I bet it is more powerful than the engine I hope to build. Help me build be best possible MP90 engine with what I can afford. Then when it has horrible intake temps and low output you can tell me "told you so."
You will even have a great example to use next time you want to assert that superchargers suck. "Well, James did everything right enough and it still wasnt any good."
I just ask that you stop calling into question the idea of supercharging on this thread because I have already stated that I have the Mp90 that you have such contempt for. [/i]
I dont mind that he hates supercharging.
It just seems that he hates it so much that he wants my engine to suck.
I am committed (already bought the MP90, stated early in this thread) to this engine project, better or worse.
I am not about to claim that my engine will be better than anybody else´s. That said,
You want to go fast? Scrap the whole supercharger idea. I don’t know who this john is but your point is irrelevant, his car isn’t for street use
There are some supercharged production street vehicles that do ok. Unless you are unimpressed by the engines that reside in the Ford GT or the or the Merc SLR...
GTV6GPTT, I have taken your bait. I am sure that your TT is very nice. I bet it is more powerful than the engine I hope to build. Help me build be best possible MP90 engine with what I can afford. Then when it has horrible intake temps and low output you can tell me "told you so."
You will even have a great example to use next time you want to assert that superchargers suck. "Well, James did everything right enough and it still wasnt any good."
I just ask that you stop calling into question the idea of supercharging on this thread because I have already stated that I have the Mp90 that you have such contempt for. [/i]
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Barry, it is expensive, but's it's an easy fit and the numbers are good. The cost can be somewhat reduced by purchasing just the barrel on evil bay and piecing together the other items needed like the pump, radiator, etc. Still, as you point out it's expensive.
You don't have too look far to find low discharge temps on a Roots car. Greg Armstrong's awesome Milano has discharge temp only 5 deg F above ambient with about 12 pounds of boost and NO water/meth injection. That's with an ancient 2nd or 3rd generation Eaton. The current M90 is 5th generation. Of course he is a top level guru on the level of Jim K, Barry. and has a fairly trick set up. These results are not terribly uncommon with a cleverly set up intercooler. There is no question that water/meth can cool the discharge temps to somwhere between ambient and the temp of the liquid.
This isn't a supercharging vs turbocharging vs... thread. If you want 300 rwhp from a 3.0 there are many ways to do it. Any form of forced induction can do the job, and some builders can even do it with a high RPM N.A. motor. The South Africans are actually able to do it with fairly mild N.A. 24 valvers. I am not saying that using a M90 or MP90 with 15 pounds of boost and low compression is the only way to do it. I have not even said it's the best way to do it. I am saying it's the way I would do it because of the cost and compexity involved in other methods. If you want to build a Turbo or Twin turbo car I am all for it. Could you get 300 rwhp with on a 3.0 with a M90 and 10 pounds of boost? Perhaps you could if you put a lot of money into bigger valves, cams, etc and go with a fairly high redline. That's a matter of personal preference and if someone wants to go that route, great! For me PERSONALLY I would rather go with lower compression, and more boost. It's old school, but it's predictable and it works.
You don't have too look far to find low discharge temps on a Roots car. Greg Armstrong's awesome Milano has discharge temp only 5 deg F above ambient with about 12 pounds of boost and NO water/meth injection. That's with an ancient 2nd or 3rd generation Eaton. The current M90 is 5th generation. Of course he is a top level guru on the level of Jim K, Barry. and has a fairly trick set up. These results are not terribly uncommon with a cleverly set up intercooler. There is no question that water/meth can cool the discharge temps to somwhere between ambient and the temp of the liquid.
This isn't a supercharging vs turbocharging vs... thread. If you want 300 rwhp from a 3.0 there are many ways to do it. Any form of forced induction can do the job, and some builders can even do it with a high RPM N.A. motor. The South Africans are actually able to do it with fairly mild N.A. 24 valvers. I am not saying that using a M90 or MP90 with 15 pounds of boost and low compression is the only way to do it. I have not even said it's the best way to do it. I am saying it's the way I would do it because of the cost and compexity involved in other methods. If you want to build a Turbo or Twin turbo car I am all for it. Could you get 300 rwhp with on a 3.0 with a M90 and 10 pounds of boost? Perhaps you could if you put a lot of money into bigger valves, cams, etc and go with a fairly high redline. That's a matter of personal preference and if someone wants to go that route, great! For me PERSONALLY I would rather go with lower compression, and more boost. It's old school, but it's predictable and it works.
Greg,those are magical numbers for a s/c setup running 12psi..Thats realy nice..Any additional info available?? cr wise??
You know how Ive felt about s/charging since you have done it so successfuly..I just wish I had the finances right now..At this stage in my life,driving a 5oo hp fire breathing turbo car is just way unpleasant for a daily runner..Id rather go for the big torque killer with total driveability for every day use..
The turbo can be used to scare granny`s` and little dogs on the weekend....
A pic of Greg`s setup?
You know how Ive felt about s/charging since you have done it so successfuly..I just wish I had the finances right now..At this stage in my life,driving a 5oo hp fire breathing turbo car is just way unpleasant for a daily runner..Id rather go for the big torque killer with total driveability for every day use..
The turbo can be used to scare granny`s` and little dogs on the weekend.... A pic of Greg`s setup?
ZAMBON.
Try reading my previous posts.
"Unless you are unimpressed by the engines that reside in the Ford GT or the or the Merc SLR" - They are strong engine without the superchargers. So no I’m not impressed.
And yes a turbo will always have a better outcome in every way over a roots blown one. Look at most jap cars as example, if u are towing make a roots is for you.
"Then when it has horrible intake temps and low output you can tell me "told you so."
Working in the automotive performance industry, modifying all types of cars i have many times been able to compare each type of set-up. So I can tell you now. TOLD YOU SO. Funny enough the same thing happened to a stubborn friend of mine.
Doing everything to a 1.5L roots blown running around 7.5:1, efi, cam, full built motor. hOoray.. on 10psi it made 87fwkw (less then his old “hot’ 1.5L)
Where the same car with a full worked 1300cc motor made that same power too.
We also had a stock 1.5L only with 7.5:1 in another car, but turbo. Making 133fwkw on 14psi. I know what I would be betting on in a race, remember we had dyno graphs to compare of both cars.
Also had a jap charged inline 6, 2L, what a bag of crap that was! And that was after the aftermarket ecu and boosting etc.
"Could you get 300 rwhp with on a 3.0 with a M90 and 10 pounds of boost? Perhaps you could if you put a lot of money into bigger valves, cams, etc and go with a fairly high redline."
We are getting 250rwhp out of a 2.5L alfa V6 on 15psi, with hardly no engine work.
Ye I hate the whole Idea.
if you want to see some of the local work we have here, see:
http://www.fullboost.com.au
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Try reading my previous posts.
"Unless you are unimpressed by the engines that reside in the Ford GT or the or the Merc SLR" - They are strong engine without the superchargers. So no I’m not impressed.
And yes a turbo will always have a better outcome in every way over a roots blown one. Look at most jap cars as example, if u are towing make a roots is for you.
"Then when it has horrible intake temps and low output you can tell me "told you so."
Working in the automotive performance industry, modifying all types of cars i have many times been able to compare each type of set-up. So I can tell you now. TOLD YOU SO. Funny enough the same thing happened to a stubborn friend of mine.
Doing everything to a 1.5L roots blown running around 7.5:1, efi, cam, full built motor. hOoray.. on 10psi it made 87fwkw (less then his old “hot’ 1.5L)
Where the same car with a full worked 1300cc motor made that same power too.
We also had a stock 1.5L only with 7.5:1 in another car, but turbo. Making 133fwkw on 14psi. I know what I would be betting on in a race, remember we had dyno graphs to compare of both cars.
Also had a jap charged inline 6, 2L, what a bag of crap that was! And that was after the aftermarket ecu and boosting etc.
"Could you get 300 rwhp with on a 3.0 with a M90 and 10 pounds of boost? Perhaps you could if you put a lot of money into bigger valves, cams, etc and go with a fairly high redline."
We are getting 250rwhp out of a 2.5L alfa V6 on 15psi, with hardly no engine work.
Ye I hate the whole Idea.
if you want to see some of the local work we have here, see:
http://www.fullboost.com.au
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Barry,
I can send you a picture of it when I get home. Or perhaps someone here can put one up. It's not exactly magic. What he does is use a big liquid to air intercooler and uses the A/C to cool the liquid down between the intercooler and the intercooler's radiator. As long as the A/C is on it cold soaks the intercooler during all the time it's not on boost and the supercharger is not generating a lot of heat. Of course I suspect that under sustained high boost driving eventually the heat from the supercharger would overcome the A/C to an extent and temps would rise. However this is not a factor for most street cars and even so discharge temps would still be darn low, just not within 5 degrees of ambient.
I like turbos as well. I also really really love super hot high rpm N.A. motors. A 500 hp turbo monster sounds like a lot of fun!
I can send you a picture of it when I get home. Or perhaps someone here can put one up. It's not exactly magic. What he does is use a big liquid to air intercooler and uses the A/C to cool the liquid down between the intercooler and the intercooler's radiator. As long as the A/C is on it cold soaks the intercooler during all the time it's not on boost and the supercharger is not generating a lot of heat. Of course I suspect that under sustained high boost driving eventually the heat from the supercharger would overcome the A/C to an extent and temps would rise. However this is not a factor for most street cars and even so discharge temps would still be darn low, just not within 5 degrees of ambient.
I like turbos as well. I also really really love super hot high rpm N.A. motors. A 500 hp turbo monster sounds like a lot of fun!
Last edited by Greg Gordon on Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Charlie DiMarco
- Silver
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:31 pm
- Location: Burbank
- Contact:
Here a link to photos of Greg Armstrongs Milano. And some other interesting Alfas.
http://www.serpentautosport.com/0087eng.jpg
http://www.serpentautosport.com/0087eng.jpg
