ALFAGTV6.COM

[junglejustice]

Well Chief,

Have a conversation with the folks who manufacture the stuff and ask them what applications they build it for... Go and tell them that they are full of shit! Next, build a few things or be a part of a dozen or so builds or just somehow put your balls where your big mouth is and be ready to eat it when you learn what works and what doesn't and then pay for it and fix it....

Fact is that an experienced engine builder will NOT put the metal grade of titanium rod produced by the likes of most modern after-market rod producers in to an long-term engine. Maybe Honda will, but the average guy down the street shouldn't. Honda may have done it with SOME grade of titanium, but that is a different story.

As for "most" of what I wrote being "bullshit" - please elaborate. What else did you not find palatable? Go spend some time at the CSIR - one of THE foremost engineering facilities IN THE WORLD (like I did) and talk to them about freezing and plasma heat-treating.

Spend time at Sator and learn something about thermal surfaces - I did. Spend time with Carrillo and develop your own rods for 3 different applications (turbo and NA) - I did. Spend time with Don Pauter and ask his opinion - develop your own rods with him for 2 different applications - twin turbo and naturally aspirated - I did. (Oh by the way; first tell him that from an engineering stand-point he is full of shit and then try talking to him...) Spend time with Ross Racing Pistons; develop a piston with specific metal/silicon composition - I did.

Put your nuts on the line with about 200 custom pistons and about 60 custom rod combinations in 14 different engines over 2 years and then have someone tell you that you are full of shit.

You're new here; maybe take it easy a bit there Tonto!

[Maurizio]

here we go again...

facts, numbers, explanations thats is what everyone here is looking for. And from that we all can learn.
Talk is nothing if you can't make it understandable for a layman in my perspective.....
Even guru's, racers, tuners etc miss the ball now or then or else they don't stick out their neck to innovate

In my line of work (mechanical engineering) 75% of the suppliers is full of shit, they all just want to sell.

[la_strega_nera]

Well Chief,

Have a conversation with the folks who manufacture the stuff and ask them what applications they build it for... Go and tell them that they are full of shit! Next, build a few things or be a part of a dozen or so builds or just somehow put your balls where your big mouth is and be ready to eat it when you learn what works and what doesn't and then pay for it and fix it....

Fact is that an experienced engine builder will NOT put the metal grade of titanium rod produced by the likes of most modern after-market rod producers in to an long-term engine. Maybe Honda will, but the average guy down the street shouldn't. Honda may have done it with SOME grade of titanium, but that is a different story.

As for "most" of what I wrote being "bullshit" - please elaborate. What else did you not find palatable? Go spend some time at the CSIR - one of THE foremost engineering facilities IN THE WORLD (like I did) and talk to them about freezing and plasma heat-treating.

Spend time at Sator and learn something about thermal surfaces - I did. Spend time with Carrillo and develop your own rods for 3 different applications (turbo and NA) - I did. Spend time with Don Pauter and ask his opinion - develop your own rods with him for 2 different applications - twin turbo and naturally aspirated - I did. (Oh by the way; first tell him that from an engineering stand-point he is full of shit and then try talking to him...) Spend time with Ross Racing Pistons; develop a piston with specific metal/silicon composition - I did.

Put your nuts on the line with about 200 custom pistons and about 60 custom rod combinations in 14 different engines over 2 years and then have someone tell you that you are full of shit.

You're new here; maybe take it easy a bit there Tonto!

New here? I'm one of the original GTV6.org posters.
I'm not saying necessarily that your suppliers are full of shit, i'm saying what you've described is full of shit.
Anyone with half a concept of the difference between designing to deflection and designing to yield would see that.

One thing to understand with the rods is that you DON'T want them strong and ridged... Place a Carrillo in the vice at the big-end and just pull on it by hand on the small-end... You will be amazed!

Even when just "seating bearings" before installation - you have to clamp the big-end itself down leaving some of the rod-cap and bolt exposed just enough to get the socket on the rod-bolts - don't even think about clamping the small-end and then toque'ing the big-end caps... Paper-weight...

Putting the rod in a vice and flexing it sideways is a no brainer, of course, then you are flexing it in the direction that its at its least stiff. If the rod has been optimised to within half an inch of its life, which i'd expect from a decent rod manufacturer (don't get me started on pauters x rods. If they were so good, everyone would be using that profile, particularly in cutting edge 2strokes where internal windage is a big issue), then yes, the potential to damage the rod by torquing the bolts up on the bench unsupported is there. Any time you take something that has been highly optimised, and load it up in way other than what it has been designed to deal with, of course its going to look all spindly and flexy. As for allowing them give under abnormal conditions, puhlease.
Blowing through custom pistons and rods in development programs is great to say you've done it, but please, its easy to do on other peoples money.
Don't try to blow smoke up peoples asses. What you've been involved with on alfa engines is no different to anything thats been done in the last 20 years of factory race motors.
I do real, cutting edge, R&D engineering every day. So stick it up your ass.

[joey]

bwahahaa, i've missed you mate !

old skool ! la stegra lives?

[Mats]

In my line of work (mechanical engineering) 75% of the suppliers is full of shit, they all just want to sell.

Amen to that...

Probably applies to all salesmen though.

Edit:

Ferrari 355 have titanium rods. I know of a guy here in Sweden that runs Aluminum rods in his street car, tears it down once a year and check them, change them when they are out of spec. Very highly tuned Ford V8.
Drag racers use the same alu rods, they do about five runs or something on a set then discard them, but than again they change a lot of parts after a few runs.

[junglejustice]

Great, so now that the professor has the personal-insult bug out of his arse, maybe we can get back to talking turkey.

My reference to the side-ways deflection of the rod is exactly that. A reference to dispel the notion that with the exotic rod we are talking about some super-strong, stiff, ridged thing that is indistructable. It is actually quite the opposite.

FACT: TITANIUM DOES NOT HAVE THE CYCLE-LIFE THAT STEEL DOES.

FACT: TITANIUM LIFE CYCLE IS ABOUT 70% THAT OFF STEEL (GIVEN THE SAME DIAMETER OF CROSS-SECTIONS.)

Steel rods; some guys use 4140, some use 4130, but those are all lower grades. Beat the Pauters up all that you will, they ONLY use 4340 chrome molly - and so does Fred Carrillo. (Due to the higher nickel-content of the 4340...) In-fact; Pauter buys their rod-stock from the exact same suppliers (and grade) as Carrillo.

Here's another fact for you - because the grade of titanium typically used is 50% lighter (given the same diameter in the cross-sections), the temptation exists to leave the rod design as-is since you are now technically using a material that is stronger. BIG mistake.

The fact that titanium has a higher propensity to crack REQUIRES stronger cross-sections - and why not!? You have plenty of weight to spare and that is how you end up at 40% lighter (with beefier cross-sections.) Especially in the thin "leg" sections of the popular H-Beam design of the Carrillos, Farmdons and Arrows rods - it is EXTREMELY important...

This is where the "+" design of the Pauter wins hands-down! There are no "thinner" areas specifically in the design of the Pauter and they STILL see the need to beef up the cross-sections with their titanium rods. At 40-50 bucks a pound (and a world-wide NEW-supply shortage right now), what you end up with is 700 dollars a rod versus 2-300... I'd go for the steel and change them out 3 times as often personally...

By the way - others DO use that same "+" design as an option - for a reason - go to the website (either Farmdon or Arrows) - just saw it on there the other day...

With the Pauters, there are some Porsche racers for example who send them in for annual check-ups and then re-bushing, but the rods can last for several seasons GIVEN A SPECIFIC DESIGN (see my previous example of a set that just came off of a 23K service life. Still, 23K is far from a lifer engine...)

As for your dumb-arse comments about "other people's money" - shove it. I am not talking about blowing through a race-team's R&D budget here - it IS my own money that has gone in to the parts portion of this R&D effort. So, hold the personal insults - it's baseless and uncalled for.

If you have something to add to Jose's question - by all means do it. If not - if you have something to say to me - do so under private cover - don't bleed all-over another man's thread.

[Mats]

Thank you for the lecture professor, that one is a keeper.

[la_strega_nera]

Great, so now that the professor has the personal-insult bug out of his arse, maybe we can get back to talking turkey.

My reference to the side-ways deflection of the rod is exactly that. A reference to dispel the notion that with the exotic rod we are talking about some super-strong, stiff, ridged thing that is indistructable. It is actually quite the opposite.

FACT: TITANIUM DOES NOT HAVE THE CYCLE-LIFE THAT STEEL DOES.

FACT: TITANIUM LIFE CYCLE IS ABOUT 70% THAT OFF STEEL (GIVEN THE SAME DIAMETER OF CROSS-SECTIONS.)

Pitty thats not the way a real engineer would use the data in design..
Titanium, 6Al4V, solution treated and aged - Yield strength = 1100MPa, UTS = 1170 MPa,
FATIGUE STRENGTH, 10,000,000 cycles, unnotched sample, 700MPa.

Heat treated 4340 steel, 32R(c), Yield strength = 1000MPa, UTS = 1034 MPa,
fatigue limit (for unlimited cycles) = 520MPa,

So yes, if your loading the steel rod below its Fatigue limit, it'll last indefinitly. However, if you design the titanium rod to peak out at 700mpa, even at 10,000rpm you'll get 16 hours continuous running at 10,000rpm before the rod cries enough (simplified example).

Steel rods; some guys use 4140, some use 4130, but those are all lower grades. Beat the Pauters up all that you will, they ONLY use 4340 chrome molly - and so does Fred Carrillo. (Due to the higher nickel-content of the 4340...) In-fact; Pauter buys their rod-stock from the exact same suppliers (and grade) as Carrillo.

I never questioned the grade of steel being used, so whats your point? Having a brain dump?

Here's another fact for you - because the grade of titanium typically used is 50% lighter (given the same diameter in the cross-sections), the temptation exists to leave the rod design as-is since you are now technically using a material that is stronger. BIG mistake.

Duh!
See my comment about designing for a deflection.

The fact that titanium has a higher propensity to crack REQUIRES stronger cross-sections - and why not!? You have plenty of weight to spare and that is how you end up at 40% lighter (with beefier cross-sections.) Especially in the thin "leg" sections of the popular H-Beam design of the Carrillos, Farmdons and Arrows rods - it is EXTREMELY important...

I once again call bullshit. Those thin "leg sections" are not where 99% of rods fail. I guarantee you, given a conventional I beam rod, a H beam rod and a pauter fancy pants rod, designed for the same piston mass/stroke/rpms (ie same beam cross section and hence same rod weight), that the pauter will pretzel at a lower chamber pressure than the H beam, which will inturn pretzel before the I beam. Its beam buckling 101.

This is where the "+" design of the Pauter wins hands-down! There are no "thinner" areas specifically in the design of the Pauter and they STILL see the need to beef up the cross-sections with their titanium rods. At 40-50 bucks a pound (and a world-wide NEW-supply shortage right now), what you end up with is 700 dollars a rod versus 2-300... I'd go for the steel and change them out 3 times as often personally...

Did you swallow a Pauter pamphlet? Or are they giving away free rods for people who spout this shit?
There is no question that steel is far cheaper than titanium as both a raw material and a finished product, titanium is a shitty thing to machine.

By the way - others DO use that same "+" design as an option - for a reason - go to the website (either Farmdon or Arrows) - just saw it on there the other day...

With the Pauters, there are some Porsche racers for example who send them in for annual check-ups and then re-bushing, but the rods can last for several seasons GIVEN A SPECIFIC DESIGN (see my previous example of a set that just came off of a 23K service life. Still, 23K is far from a lifer engine...)

As for your dumb-arse comments about "other people's money" - shove it. I am not talking about blowing through a race-team's R&D budget here - it IS my own money that has gone in to the parts portion of this R&D effort. So, hold the personal insults - it's baseless and uncalled for.

If you have something to add to Jose's question - by all means do it. If not - if you have something to say to me - do so under private cover - don't bleed all-over another man's thread.

I have nothing to add to Jose's question. However, i see no reason to hide a technical discussion from other members of the forum to make their own decisions over who's a feltching dick weasel and who isnt. I'm not here to sell anything. YOU ARE. so don't taint tech with "my stuff is the best","These coil packs are soooo rare". Whats next? A fridge magnet that clamps around your fuel line and "polarizes" the energy, improving fuel economy?

As the say on Corner Carvers, "Where's the tech?"

[junglejustice]

Technical discussion my arse! (More like a flame-basting - and it is not the first time...)

This wanker (who is an engineer of what - public utility-systems? Electronics? Land infrastructure? What?) - He registers last month and then wants to pull shit off of the internet and blow it out of his arse here - to what end...? What is it you actually build ( - or contribute here but insults...?)

You know what gentlemen - This is where I bid you folks farewell. Some of you may say good riddance. Some of you may think it. (Not a problem for me either way.) Yes, it has not been smooth - I know it and at the same time, I have made some really great friends here too...

Those who have met me in person or who have spent time with me on the phone, knows who I am, what I am about and where the heart is, but this is a great deal of energy and time when at the end of the day, it's just a fucking car man. It will be good to have more time to spend on my own projects for a change.

It's been nice; it's been real. At the same time it has been a huge pain in my arse. People like this guy makes the experience of participating in car-club forums more trouble than what it is worth. (Each time some prick gets a hard-on for me, I have to take the high-road at the cost of my own dignity OR, defend myself at the cost of others' perception of me here. Fuckit.

I love Alfas and generally enjoyed participating here and helping various folks with sourcing things that they may otherwise not have had access to. For me, it has always been about my passion for the brand - a hobby that pays for itself AT BEST! (Not about pricks like this guy...)

I do not sell Pauter rods (nor ANY type of rod for that matter) and as God is my witness, Jose (privy to my personal conversations with him about the rods and privy to his own direct pricing from Pauter), can come on here and tell any and all of you if I was trying to make one red cent off of him on the rods or if I was simply trying to help him get the rods THAT HE ORIGINALLY ASKED HELP WITH....

I offered him the exact same price that he got direct from Pauter (including shipping) - just with faster delivery. At the end of the day, he asked for help with Pauter specs - I did not try to push a commercial on him as this prick now implied!

ABSOLUTELY NO DISRESPECT towards Michael - I consider him a friend and would not want to leave the GoTech forum hi and dry - I am always available to answer questions and help out there. Otherwise, most of you know where to find me by phone or via personal email - I'll be over on the Alfabb till then.

Those of you who have proven to be friends - call me/email me any time; if can help out I will.

Cheers,
JvR

[la_strega_nera]

Put your nuts on the line with about 200 custom pistons and about 60 custom rod combinations in 14 different engines over 2 years and then have someone tell you that you are full of shit.

You're new here; maybe take it easy a bit there Tonto!

While I think of it, 14 engines in 2 years, and not with other peoples money? You'd have thought after the first one or two broke you'd worked out you were doing something wrong?
Or were you doing development on customers engines?
"We" developed? Signed any NDAs there Kemosabe? Or did you just pay them money to make rods for you?
As far as i can tell, you're just selling motors built out of Glenwoods. So should perhaps you be saying "Dawie developed, or Dawie built?"

High-ho Tinfoil, And Away!

[la_strega_nera]

And as for what I engineer, its the defence end of the world, so if i fuck up, people die.

[junglejustice]

And as for what I engineer, its the defence end of the world, so if i fuck up, people die.

You'll fit right in here and you'll go far in life.

Adios.

[Greg Gordon]

Whoa, hold on you two. I think you both have failed to understand just who you are talking to.


John, meet Ben. Ben (La Strega Nera) has been posting here longer than either of us. He has been missing in action for a couple years while he was playing with two strokes and american V8s. He is a real engineer and is one of the most knowledgeable people out there. Yes he is a hot head that flys off the handle when someone says something he disagrees with, but that's why we love him here. I am glad he is back.


Ben, meet John (Junglejustice). John has put A LOT of work into an effort to bring modern South African built Alfa motors to the U.S. Thanks to him we here in the U.S. can now buy 300hp, 400hp and probably higher Alfa V6s. He has personally taken the parts from U.S. suppliers over to South Africa to have these engines built. It's a true labor of love effort and it will be years before he ever breaks even on the project. Not only has John made complete motors available, we can now get parts we could never get before, various types of headers, intake plenums etc.


On the subject of which rod design is best, I have no idea. I really don't think it matters, we are not building 2000 hp LS2s, the head bolts on the Alfa V6 will probably stretch long before Carrillo, Pauter, or any of the other quality rods will fail.

[terminator]

Ooops,
Did not expected this thread to run amog.
Back to my question again. Can the stock rods be made
stronger & if so how much relaible hp can it handle before
it breaks.

Thank you kindly Guys.

[Mats]

Hp is not directly the killer, the revs and the forces involved is the rod-killer.
Lighter pistons will make the life easier for the rods and balancing the reciprocating assembly is a must (unless you keep everything bone stock).

Some calculations on maximum acceleration in TDC would probably give us some interesting food for thought.