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Andrew.b
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1.8 Turbo - 380hp

Post by Andrew.b »

How would some of you go about getting big power from the 1800 turbo engine?? This will be my next project for a stupid car......

Mats????
Barry????
JimK????
Brian???


All ideas welcome.
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4SFED4
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Post by 4SFED4 »

Do we have a budget to consider?
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Post by Andrew.b »

Not really, anticipate forged pistons and steel rods to start!
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Post by 4SFED4 »

For starters... throw away the 1.8 and get a 2.0!

If that is not an option... run a big I/C, modest compression and LOTS of boost. Do all you can to keep charge temperatures down.

-Brian
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Post by Mats »

You rang..? ;)

I'm sure someone else will be able to give you a better reply (since I really don't have built a running engine yet) but I can get the ball rolling.

300Hp from a 1.8 as old as this is quite an extreme task. That is a fact, whatever people say 300 real Hp is a lot, I know you understand this Andrew but I'm just setting the mood here. ;)

I have heard tales about how bulletproof the bottom end is and I have also heard about how fragile it is. Some say you need a monoliner if you go over this many Hp and some say you can use standard rods for one gazillion Hp.
For reliable Hp the rods need to go and most certainly the cast pistons. Forged items is a must and the lighter the better for reliability.
Oil squirters is also a must if you are going to use the engine for anything other then dyno runs (or freeway squirts). I asked friend who works with turbocharging at a Swedish car manufacturer a couple of years ago if oil squirters were needed and he lookt at me a bit funny and then said "Is an intercooler needed?" :roll: .
You may not need it for the application but it is really just stupid not to add it, saves pistons. High capacity oil pump, windage tray and a modified sump helps keeping the engine happy. Basic stuff really. Bin the dizzy

Head needs some smoothing and new valves and guides, go for 45 degree seats while you are at it. Get valves with thinner shafts, lighter and better for flow. Valve springs of course to match a high lift cam.
New cams obviously as the standard units at total crap, I have no idea what the Alfa engineers were thinking when they designed that discusting exhaust cam but I'm sure it wasn't maximum power. New plugs!

That pretty much takes care of the long block, you might want to add O-ringed liners if you wanna be absolutely sure and possibly even a litte engine "concrete" (epoxi really) to keep the liners in place.

The manifold you need to replace and naturally the turbo, I'd prefer to run relatively low static compression and a well flowing turbine to keep the temperatures in check, less backpressure is also nice. Matching exhaust, 3" or something will probably do the job just fine.
New intercooler/intake, big front mounted air/air intercooler and a well designed plenum that has a nice and large throttlebody and velocity stacks on the runners. Injectors need replacing too as the standard ones are VERY small.
Fuel pump needs to be replaced and possibly the fuel regulator
Management system should naturally be able to control both ignition and fuel, I don't have to tell you what to do with the LE2-Jetronic I hope? :)
Waste fire or direct ignition, either way should work. 60-2 missing or similar high definition trigger. Coils and sensors to match and someone to hook it up and tune it. EGT measurement (induvidually at the start of each branch by the head and one in the collector just before the turbine) and wideband O2 measuring systems is a must for serious mapping.

I guess this is just a BOM-list but it gives you a rough idea what a race engine needs...
A street engine pumping 300Hp might be easier as you tend to not go as hard on the street (or turn as much) and if you do you are probably going faster = better cooling.
Heat is aleays an issue in turbo cars and the more junk you can move out of the engine bay the better, a new radiator might be a good idea too.

As for specific designs of the individual parts it is really down to what kind of system you build and you need to give some input before I can give you any useful answers.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
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GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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Post by Jim K »

Andrew,
I'll add to whatever Mats scared you with (all the things you have to do) the interesting note that a 75 1,8T owner here has measured 467 flywheel hp. the engine has most of what Mats mentioned, plus a specially made stainless spaghetti exhaust manifold, no AFM, an SDS programmable ECU (I think they're made in Canada). This power is produced with 2,5bar pressure, but on the road he limits at 2,0. He doesn't have steel liners and he's been dragging the p1ss out of the poor car for 2years now! Main problems are with donuts.
Factory racers (1990) put out 390 and even 430hp with 2,3bar.
So, you can't complain about the possibilities, they're definitely there. However, as the factory drivers did (Francia,Larini,Patrese etc) you will have to learn to drive the beast around corners! I read once Francia's account: ''You brake going into the corner,then,before the apex you floor it briefly to get the snail going hard and after a few meters you floor it for good,so, by the time you are pointed straight you have full boost and rocket acceleration!'' Indeed, a difficult thing to bring yourself to do, floor it before the apex!Maybe those guys had 3 feet for all 3 pedals? Remember,those machines had up to 65kgm (!!!) of torque!
Regards,
Jim K.
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Post by Mats »

Sounds excellent.

But I have to say a manifold was on my list, and the AFM goes in the bin together with the rest of the LE2-Jet-Crap. I thought this was so clear I didn't even spell it out. :D

I second the "weird driving" feeling, took me some serious thinking before I could drive a N/A car efter having learned to drive on track with a Turbo.
It's like switching between a FWD car to a RWD.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-

GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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Post by SydneyJules »

I've been for a ride in a 1.8T that churned out just on 300hp @ wheels, and the only thing stopping it from getting up and seriously moving was Paul K being nice to it between 1st and 2nd, and the wheels spinning in third... the torque is amazing.

It has a very long set of manifolds, which Paul scored from Beninca, for quite cheap, and a large trim GT25. From memory the A/Rs are .7x on the front- maybe .72? and pretty sure it's a .68 rear, but with an external W/G, 3" dump pipe, and side exit exhaust.
Piping feeds compressor inlet from the front left wheel arch, and all piping is probably around 2 3/4 or 3" thick. Intercooler is at least 3" thick.

From memory, car runs 7:1 static on Ross forged pistons, carillo rods, big valves, and custom cams. Redline was set at 7500, and boost was 32psi (>2bar), which it made from what felt like about 3300, and held to redline. Wheelspin with tall 17" rims was less exacerbated, but noticeable. Gearbox was a 75 TS 4.11:1 , with a shimmed out diff, and a kevlar clutch $$$$!!

Among the pipework was a very large oil air separator, which it definitely needs, and the ECU is a MoTec running four coils direct fire, and a MoTec dash completes the situation. GTV3.0 brembos on the front.

There's a group that subscribe to a 1.8T being a better proposition for big HP because of the bigger liner.... and that the 200cc difference is going to be minimal on torque an HP....

I still think that if you're going to go to the extent of doing all that work to a 1.8T (they sound like REALLY angry Nords when you put 30psi through em!), an 8v TS is a better option.

Imagine running direct fire on one of those babies!?!

What's the engine going into?
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by Mats »

Sounds interesting. Pics/videos? :)
Mats Strandberg
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-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-

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155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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Post by Jim K »

Just a thought to get the snail-lovers going again (Hi, Mats!)
The WRC cars with 2liter mills and 34mm restrictors, put out about...80kgm of torque at around...2000rpm and the AVERAGE power from 2000-6500rpm is...320hp. They also have around 12:1CR AND 2bar boost! Without the restrictor, you're looking at about 650-700 RELIABLE hp!!
See ya!!
Jim K.
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Post by Greg Gordon »

Jim, I think it's important to mention the type of fuel being used when discussing these radical motors.

While you may think it's obvious many others may not realize that nobody is running 12:1 compression with 2 bar of boost on any fuel available at the local service station. In fact at a certain point the fuel becomes more of a factor then the engine mods.
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Post by Mats »

You should also consider the fact that they rebuild their engines is something like 2000Km intervals. That includes the turbo.

Sponsored by the tobacco industy? :)
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-

GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
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Post by 4SFED4 »

Greg,

Just for fun... have you calculated what the effective octane level would have to be to support 2 bar and a CR of 12:1?

As a side note... I read an article about F1 fuels. An F1 car must be able to, according to the rules, run on pump gas. And they do without any modifications at all... the catch is they will only produce about half the power, ~450BHP on genuine pump fuel. To get full power you have to use the fancy stuff Shell provides which is also about 2/3 the weight of pump fuel. Just incredible.

-Brian
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Post by SydneyJules »

Im gonna try and get some vids and pics of Paul's car together very shortly!

I would love to see Paul's, and yours Brian, side by side, chalking their tyres!
Fixing it bit by bit....
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Post by Greg Gordon »

Hi Brian,
No I have not. Engines like that are so far outside the realm of what I do I just have not done it. It might be interesting though.
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