http://www.alfapower.nu/gallery/Evoluzione?page=1
Hi Jim/matsJimGreek wrote:Andrew,
I'll add to whatever Mats scared you with (all the things you have to do) the interesting note that a 75 1,8T owner here has measured 467 flywheel hp. the engine has most of what Mats mentioned, plus a specially made stainless spaghetti exhaust manifold, no AFM, an SDS programmable ECU (I think they're made in Canada). This power is produced with 2,5bar pressure, but on the road he limits at 2,0. He doesn't have steel liners and he's been dragging the p1ss out of the poor car for 2years now! Main problems are with donuts.
Factory racers (1990) put out 390 and even 430hp with 2,3bar.
So, you can't complain about the possibilities, they're definitely there. However, as the factory drivers did (Francia,Larini,Patrese etc) you will have to learn to drive the beast around corners! I read once Francia's account: ''You brake going into the corner,then,before the apex you floor it briefly to get the snail going hard and after a few meters you floor it for good,so, by the time you are pointed straight you have full boost and rocket acceleration!'' Indeed, a difficult thing to bring yourself to do, floor it before the apex!Maybe those guys had 3 feet for all 3 pedals? Remember,those machines had up to 65kgm (!!!) of torque!
Regards,
Jim K.
Right, the project is fully underway now.
Steel forged rod at +1mm are ordered, forged pistons also.
*****I need advice on the static CR*******
*****I need advice on cams..lift/duration*****
The road 75 turbo was 7.5:1 and the 75 evoluzione was 7.0:1. Was this just the difference in the slightly smaller piston on the evo?? or a homologation thing?
With modern engine management what CR would you suggest, keep it low - 7.0:1 or go higher 7.8:1??
Also the head work!!!!!!!! what about valve sizes. Say 46mm inlet 41 exhaust (standard alfa 2.0 ex size) or maybe 38mm ??
What about ex valve material, stainless steel/nimonic filled??
Remember this is a FULL HOUSE race motor....... Dry sumped, Garrett GT30-71r turbo, Girdled/strenthened block, solid prop, and full race suspension kit, just to give some of the South African V6 boys a fright!!
My Alfetta saloon racer is in a container on its way to live out there with Dawie (glenwood) so I can compete at the local races when I'm over there.
Seem to be there at least 5 times a year with work, so it makes sense to leave a car out there and have some fun. My last trip was with Roberto Giordanelli, and we tested, raced, photographed over 10 cars in 12 days!
So come on guys...... I need your help on this one!
Andrew b
Hmm, you're not consulting an engine builder? It's really difficult to just set numbers like that. I certainly don't have that kind of experience.
The turbo choise indicates that you might be able to run pretty wild cams and lowish static comp (7.5-8). Big turbine will keep the back-pressure nice and low. You need a good manifold though but that's obvious I think as is a full engine management system go for DTA (local support is paramount) or something similar, don't be cheap and try to save a buck...
Basically build a hot N/A engine and add a turbo.
The turbo choise indicates that you might be able to run pretty wild cams and lowish static comp (7.5-8). Big turbine will keep the back-pressure nice and low. You need a good manifold though but that's obvious I think as is a full engine management system go for DTA (local support is paramount) or something similar, don't be cheap and try to save a buck...
Basically build a hot N/A engine and add a turbo.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
It is sort of off topic, but I have to chime in that that (Sport Sedan?) is stunning!
I have a strong lust for that shape but I have not heard of many being built for performance. It looks brutal without the bumpers.
great stuff Andrew, please dont hold back from posting more photos if you have a chance.
I have a strong lust for that shape but I have not heard of many being built for performance. It looks brutal without the bumpers.
great stuff Andrew, please dont hold back from posting more photos if you have a chance.
Hi Barry/matsBarry wrote:Andrew,your familiar with the ts turbo we did making 400 WHEEL hp...
Stock rods,but prepped,production Mhale Opel/Vauxhall pistons,MONOSLEEVE!!!(important-I have burst many a sleeve..)Nothing fancy..
Yes we've spoken about this car. Was it not an autodelta nord engine, magnesium block, with monosleve and t/s 75 head??
I've heard that machining the block for monosleve makes it even weaker, as the 75 imsa factory cars ran with individual liners??
The 75 turbo liners are extra thick also.
I dont have a spare alfa 75 twinspark to make the conversion, also the t/s might not be allowed in the historic rules???
As I have a 1.8 75 turbo motor sitting here, i'm using that rather than wasting it!!
C&B make turbo full race cams, which I'll probably go with, but I was after other suggestions.
Barry what comp have you run with big boost nord engines??
Come on Jim?????? your comments please
Andrew b
Hi Zambonzambon wrote:It is sort of off topic, but I have to chime in that that (Sport Sedan?) is stunning!
I have a strong lust for that shape but I have not heard of many being built for performance. It looks brutal without the bumpers.
great stuff Andrew, please dont hold back from posting more photos if you have a chance.
Thanks......... I'll have more pics shortly.
Going with 9x16 3 piece wheels and slicks, so the arches will need rolling out a bit. should look mean after that!
I have a lead on a straight cut 'dog' box....... 4.3 final with 5th 1:1 . I hope it comes my way soon.
Cheers
Andrew b
Andrew,yes..I got tha block from Dawie all those years ago..It was an A.D.magnesium block with monosleeve..I would go with an ally block mono no problem..But mono is ,in my opinion,compulsory for a high output..Or you make your own thick wall-no,scrap that idea,they burst at the narrowing where 2 sleeves meet on the bore centerline...
7:1 cr with big boost,I would not be a hero with those combustion shapes....
I have said this before and am doing so again...Ive made more power consistently with tight fitting cast and hyperuetectic pistons than I ever made with forgings....Blowby is always a problem..My turbo(200wheel hp)was fitted with casr pistons and never had more than 4% blowby..ever..That is unheard of,even by todays stds...
*remember the rack??*
7:1 cr with big boost,I would not be a hero with those combustion shapes....
I have said this before and am doing so again...Ive made more power consistently with tight fitting cast and hyperuetectic pistons than I ever made with forgings....Blowby is always a problem..My turbo(200wheel hp)was fitted with casr pistons and never had more than 4% blowby..ever..That is unheard of,even by todays stds...
*remember the rack??*
Barry
Yeah, monosleve would be lovely, but......
to have one made here will cost around £1800, are there any left in s.a ?? i doubt it? Then the block machining wouldn't be cheap either. So I guess I'm staying with the thick 75 turbo single liners.
I always thought the monosleve was a way for alfa to reach 2000cc with the 1750 nord engine, as the rules allowed up to 2000cc, and alfa were not producing the 2.0 block at the time.
The trouble with the nord engine and cast pistons is you are stuck with the standard 75 turbo cast piston. They are very good up to a point, but because of the combustion shape in the head, what can you use in place unless you go forged.
You have a T/S head on the nord block, which gives a much better choice for other pistons. did you use pistons from BMW 325?? or from a JAP car?
7.0:1 sounds good to me!
i'm hoping to run 2.0bar the works cars managed 2.5 bar using an old style garret t4..... HUGE lag, then it all comes at once like a hand grenade.
Have you had the single lines made in a stronger steel than the factory stuff before Barry?? maybe this coud work??
Have you had trouble with exhaust valves overheating and dropping heads off, or worse??
Yeah, monosleve would be lovely, but......
to have one made here will cost around £1800, are there any left in s.a ?? i doubt it? Then the block machining wouldn't be cheap either. So I guess I'm staying with the thick 75 turbo single liners.
I always thought the monosleve was a way for alfa to reach 2000cc with the 1750 nord engine, as the rules allowed up to 2000cc, and alfa were not producing the 2.0 block at the time.
The trouble with the nord engine and cast pistons is you are stuck with the standard 75 turbo cast piston. They are very good up to a point, but because of the combustion shape in the head, what can you use in place unless you go forged.
You have a T/S head on the nord block, which gives a much better choice for other pistons. did you use pistons from BMW 325?? or from a JAP car?
7.0:1 sounds good to me!
i'm hoping to run 2.0bar the works cars managed 2.5 bar using an old style garret t4..... HUGE lag, then it all comes at once like a hand grenade.
Have you had the single lines made in a stronger steel than the factory stuff before Barry?? maybe this coud work??
Have you had trouble with exhaust valves overheating and dropping heads off, or worse??
Andrew b
What you really should do is have a chat with Jim Steck, ha has done loads of Alfa Turbo engines and should be able to make you something that works very well. Both Nord and TS (and a combination).
www.autocomponenti.com
www.autocomponenti.com
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
Thanks Mats.Mats wrote:What you really should do is have a chat with Jim Steck, ha has done loads of Alfa Turbo engines and should be able to make you something that works very well. Both Nord and TS (and a combination).
www.autocomponenti.com
I hopefully have a turbo exhaust manifold coming from Jim....... equal length stuff, very cool. But, the motor is being built by Dawie, over at glenwood, as the car will now live there on a permanent basis, and as he's gonna be looking after it, it makes sense that he know the engine inside out.
I have a very cool autodelta propshaft, that i'm sending with the car, and we're going to experiment with fitting BMW CV joints at the front and rear!
Barry, did you go with larger valves in th TS head?
Andrew b
Hi guys,I just read this. I think you're overrating the need for a monosleeve. As Andrew says, these things were employed to make 2liter engines out of 1750's and 1900's out of 1600's. 1.8T's were good for up to 430 hp +65kgm with 2.3bar, liners were not a problem (BMW's were the problem, heheh!)
Head mods are always valid, as well as correct dimensioning of intake components to facilitate flow, lower temp and minimize lag. If you want a bulletproof ride, use an ECU with an active knock sensor feature. I believe you can safely run up to 9.5-10:1CR (!!!) with modern systems, moderate boost and good fuel. If you build it intelligently, you can size all components just right and end up with an all-around killer machine with up to 300hp, quick everywhere! But if you want TOP power (over 400+) you will invariably lose the low end to a huge snail spool-up. Anti-lag is out of the question I believe, unless you have deep pockets for turbines etc.I also assume we're talking about the 1.8T motor and there(Barry is right) you can do most everything with the std cast pistons! If you want, a number of sources have steel liners for humongous boost. A 2liter would have problems as you say with liner thickness. There are many books on the subject as you know. One of the jobs with good payback in terms of power is the reworking of the turbo innards for better flow. Don't ask for details, I'm not about to translate a whole Italian book for ya!
There's my 2 bits. As a last note, ditch the turbo and build the best na motor you can! Where's the fun in cramming air in?? Now coaxing it into sucking more air in, thats the trick!!
Build what you want, then go out and find the new VW (1400cc, 170hp) for a test run!
Jim K.
Head mods are always valid, as well as correct dimensioning of intake components to facilitate flow, lower temp and minimize lag. If you want a bulletproof ride, use an ECU with an active knock sensor feature. I believe you can safely run up to 9.5-10:1CR (!!!) with modern systems, moderate boost and good fuel. If you build it intelligently, you can size all components just right and end up with an all-around killer machine with up to 300hp, quick everywhere! But if you want TOP power (over 400+) you will invariably lose the low end to a huge snail spool-up. Anti-lag is out of the question I believe, unless you have deep pockets for turbines etc.I also assume we're talking about the 1.8T motor and there(Barry is right) you can do most everything with the std cast pistons! If you want, a number of sources have steel liners for humongous boost. A 2liter would have problems as you say with liner thickness. There are many books on the subject as you know. One of the jobs with good payback in terms of power is the reworking of the turbo innards for better flow. Don't ask for details, I'm not about to translate a whole Italian book for ya!
There's my 2 bits. As a last note, ditch the turbo and build the best na motor you can! Where's the fun in cramming air in?? Now coaxing it into sucking more air in, thats the trick!!
Build what you want, then go out and find the new VW (1400cc, 170hp) for a test run!
Jim K.