Did you have any more pictures of the plumbing? As i understood you used stock plenum and no IC. Have you messured intake temperature with this setup??
Pics..pleeeeaassse *drool*
Plumbing?
Hi
Did you have any more pictures of the plumbing? As i understood you used stock plenum and no IC. Have you messured intake temperature with this setup??
Pics..pleeeeaassse *drool*
Did you have any more pictures of the plumbing? As i understood you used stock plenum and no IC. Have you messured intake temperature with this setup??
Pics..pleeeeaassse *drool*
Kenth Wiklund
75 3.0 Challenge
75 3.0 Challenge
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Kunta,
I don't have any other pictures except the one of Bill's motor. I don't want to post that one for two reasons. First it's a non standard set up and may cause confusion in the future, second I am keeping some minor details secret for now.
The picture on my site does a pretty good job of showing the general layout of all the plumbing. It's darn near exact.
I don't use an intercooler. That's good right? It means we are making 236 horsepower with room to improve for customers looking for even more. All of my numbers assume no intercooler, even the 270 hp and 300 hp estimated max numbers for the 2.5 and 3.0. If you want an intercooler I can sell it too you, the kit is designed with an intercooler in mind. However, what's the point? I can make enough power to start breaking things without it.
I don't have any other pictures except the one of Bill's motor. I don't want to post that one for two reasons. First it's a non standard set up and may cause confusion in the future, second I am keeping some minor details secret for now.
The picture on my site does a pretty good job of showing the general layout of all the plumbing. It's darn near exact.
I don't use an intercooler. That's good right? It means we are making 236 horsepower with room to improve for customers looking for even more. All of my numbers assume no intercooler, even the 270 hp and 300 hp estimated max numbers for the 2.5 and 3.0. If you want an intercooler I can sell it too you, the kit is designed with an intercooler in mind. However, what's the point? I can make enough power to start breaking things without it.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Kunta, Sorry I forgot about the temp question. I have measured discharge temps and I am quite happy with the results. Most of the specs including discharge temps for the M62 can be found here http://www.magnusonproducts.com/mp62.htm
Our numbers seem to be slightly better then these charts indicate. I have a pretty good idea why but I would rather not speculate at this time.
By the way, why is it the other supercharger manufacturers don't publish all the engineering data. A lot of them claim great numbers but don't provide charts.
As a facinating (well at least to me) point of interest and perhaps slightly off topic...we have found that the power from the increase effective compression ratio exactly cancels out the power required to drive the supercharger up to about 7 pounds of boost! That sure makes those boost level/horsepower calculations easy! In other words 40% more air gives 40% more power because the other main variable cancel each other out.
Our numbers seem to be slightly better then these charts indicate. I have a pretty good idea why but I would rather not speculate at this time.
By the way, why is it the other supercharger manufacturers don't publish all the engineering data. A lot of them claim great numbers but don't provide charts.
As a facinating (well at least to me) point of interest and perhaps slightly off topic...we have found that the power from the increase effective compression ratio exactly cancels out the power required to drive the supercharger up to about 7 pounds of boost! That sure makes those boost level/horsepower calculations easy! In other words 40% more air gives 40% more power because the other main variable cancel each other out.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Barry, check it out and let me know what you think,
Hi Andrew, you are dead right. A water/air charge cooler is the way to go due to the minor pressure drop. The Eaton unit is a poor match for an air to air cooler. I know, I know they use one on the MINI...well they shouldn't!
Anyone who buys my kit can add an intercooler easily, there is at least one that's nearly a bolt in swap on the Milano, but lets not get into that just yet. I don't have all the details worked out. I just know if I say I think the MWX3250 intercooler will work and then later I find out it won't I will probably catch hell.
Hi Andrew, you are dead right. A water/air charge cooler is the way to go due to the minor pressure drop. The Eaton unit is a poor match for an air to air cooler. I know, I know they use one on the MINI...well they shouldn't!
Anyone who buys my kit can add an intercooler easily, there is at least one that's nearly a bolt in swap on the Milano, but lets not get into that just yet. I don't have all the details worked out. I just know if I say I think the MWX3250 intercooler will work and then later I find out it won't I will probably catch hell.
Hi Greg, good to hear some good results.
My 2.5 has been dynoed. It puts out an incredible 236 flywheel horsepower and 244 pounds of torque! It has 219 pounds of torque at 2400 rpm (for comparison a 3.0s PEAK torque is 181). These numbers are converted from rear wheel horsepower,
What where the raw Rear Wheel figures.
What Boost did you run on this run.
1/2 tank of fuel (more fuel in the tank=more power on a forced induction motor)
I was wondering how this effects power?
Keep up the good work.
My 2.5 has been dynoed. It puts out an incredible 236 flywheel horsepower and 244 pounds of torque! It has 219 pounds of torque at 2400 rpm (for comparison a 3.0s PEAK torque is 181). These numbers are converted from rear wheel horsepower,
What where the raw Rear Wheel figures.
What Boost did you run on this run.
1/2 tank of fuel (more fuel in the tank=more power on a forced induction motor)
I was wondering how this effects power?
Keep up the good work.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi GTV6GPTT,
Thanks! I am quite happy with the results. The Raw data and all conditions of the test as well as conversion calculations are at the bottom of my supercharging page here: http://www.oldebottles.com/italiancarspage7.htm .
That's a good question about fuel level. The point I was trying to make is that I made this test as fair as possible. I know a lot of tuners test under the best possible conditions to get the highest possible numbers. I did just the opposite in order to provide numbers which my customers can realistically expect with the kit. I didn't try to improve B.S.F.C. and thus power with $6 a quart Amsoil, we didn't have a big fan blowing on the front of the car to simulate cold air entering into the intake duct. I am sure you get the idea.
One of the smaller variables is fuel tank level. This is because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge. However the fuel that doesn't go through the injectors goes back to the tank after being heated up in the engine compartment. When it gets there it has plenty of time to cool down before geing back to the motor. As you can imagine, the longer you run the car, the hotter your engine bay, and the lower your fuel tank level the hotter your fuel will be at the injectors.
This effect on fuel tank temp. is quite large on a high boost motor run for a long time with low fuel. On a streetable setup like mine it's minimal but still worth considering.
Thanks! I am quite happy with the results. The Raw data and all conditions of the test as well as conversion calculations are at the bottom of my supercharging page here: http://www.oldebottles.com/italiancarspage7.htm .
That's a good question about fuel level. The point I was trying to make is that I made this test as fair as possible. I know a lot of tuners test under the best possible conditions to get the highest possible numbers. I did just the opposite in order to provide numbers which my customers can realistically expect with the kit. I didn't try to improve B.S.F.C. and thus power with $6 a quart Amsoil, we didn't have a big fan blowing on the front of the car to simulate cold air entering into the intake duct. I am sure you get the idea.
One of the smaller variables is fuel tank level. This is because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge. However the fuel that doesn't go through the injectors goes back to the tank after being heated up in the engine compartment. When it gets there it has plenty of time to cool down before geing back to the motor. As you can imagine, the longer you run the car, the hotter your engine bay, and the lower your fuel tank level the hotter your fuel will be at the injectors.
This effect on fuel tank temp. is quite large on a high boost motor run for a long time with low fuel. On a streetable setup like mine it's minimal but still worth considering.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Hi Andrew the system incorporates automatic boost retard (ABR). In other words as soon as the supercharger turns on it retards the spark. Does it need it? I don't really know because I have not driven the car without it but it sure seems like a good idea to me 
Of course it also has auto boost enrichment (ABE) both of these systems are so simple as to not be worth discussing.
I have only used standard plugs and that's all I am using for reliability testing, although one heat range colder may be a good idea.
Of course it also has auto boost enrichment (ABE) both of these systems are so simple as to not be worth discussing.
I have only used standard plugs and that's all I am using for reliability testing, although one heat range colder may be a good idea.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Just to clarify the corrected rear wheel numbers are about 188 horsepower and 194 pounds of torque.
Raw data numbers are not really useable for comparison because atmospheric conditions can easily account for 20% variation at the same elevation. For example at a 500 foot elevation dyno with an air temp of 100F, an altimeter setting of 29.85 and humidity of 50% the density altitude works out to 3682 feet. At the same station with a temp of 15F, an altimeter setting of 30.15 and humidity at 10% the density altitude is -2693 for a difference of about 19% horsepower. This range of conditions is easily possible in Dallas and many other places so we have to be carefull when comparing raw data numbers. For example had I dynoed my car under the second set of conditions it would have put down about 205 rwhp. A lot of vendors quote misleading numbers like this. I am trying to be accurate.
Our 236hp setup has about 6.5 psi. I have run the car with 7.2 psi with no problems. I would like to set my personal car up with 8:1 Venolias and 9 psi.
Patzo's 3.0 is no match for my car, HA HA HA! Just kidding, I can't even remember the details of Patzo's motor. However it would take at least a 250-260 hp normally aspirated 3.0 to out perform my 2.5 because its area under the torque curve is so massive.
Raw data numbers are not really useable for comparison because atmospheric conditions can easily account for 20% variation at the same elevation. For example at a 500 foot elevation dyno with an air temp of 100F, an altimeter setting of 29.85 and humidity of 50% the density altitude works out to 3682 feet. At the same station with a temp of 15F, an altimeter setting of 30.15 and humidity at 10% the density altitude is -2693 for a difference of about 19% horsepower. This range of conditions is easily possible in Dallas and many other places so we have to be carefull when comparing raw data numbers. For example had I dynoed my car under the second set of conditions it would have put down about 205 rwhp. A lot of vendors quote misleading numbers like this. I am trying to be accurate.
Our 236hp setup has about 6.5 psi. I have run the car with 7.2 psi with no problems. I would like to set my personal car up with 8:1 Venolias and 9 psi.
Patzo's 3.0 is no match for my car, HA HA HA! Just kidding, I can't even remember the details of Patzo's motor. However it would take at least a 250-260 hp normally aspirated 3.0 to out perform my 2.5 because its area under the torque curve is so massive.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm
Greg,Thanks for the detail.Simplicity itself! Well done,the install is great and I realy enjoy the thoroughness of your data.
N pluimpie aan jou-
Barry
N pluimpie aan jou-
Barry
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
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Greg Gordon
- Verde
- Posts: 1552
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:06 pm