patzo_3l
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Post by patzo_3l »

hahaha ohhh my dear greg... i have been monitoring your progress on this so called "performance upgrade" and to be honest if nobody else in here is man enough to say it i will. i cannot see anything in your setup that has been done correctly. from the poorly chosen supercharger type or the crappy piping setup. hahahaha just kidding greg. but really if u wana post your dyno sheet so we can compare against my 3.0l feel free to do so as my figures are not text book calculations like yours but REAL rwhp figures.. not imaginative figures. secondly i cannot see how u can even compare your supercharged setup to even a half assed turbo setup let alone one done properly like gtv6gptt. why not compare a boosted 2.5 to another because after all like you said on page 7 of your site supercharging is the way to go.

my final thought..anyone planning on buying one of these kits is just plain naive in my books and throwing good money in the drain. for buying one of these kits mean simply bolting on 20 year old technology (old fashioned supercharger basically) and i thought the point of modifying our cars was to keep with more modern rivals.

no hard feelings greg but thats how i feel.

patzo_3l
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Jim K
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Post by Jim K »

I thought about not commenting on your message for a while,Patzo, since I'm a dedicated atmo man myself, but I can't help wondering if you can really grasp the amount of work this man has done, in order to responsibly sell this kit to anyone, let alone people in this forum who have come to know and respect each other for knowledge character and sincerity. You seem to think (like so many others) that horsepower is king. If so, anyone can hard-nitro their 3liter and blow you away-is that really the bottom line? NO, its all about design and development, trial and error, frustration and success and finally having something you have done YOURSELF! I'm sorry if you can't understand all this, or the way this guy finally feels about his accomplishment-you're missing out on a lot! If your quest in things automotive is "mine is faster than yours", then so be it. But please don't try to tarnish someone's best efforts to achieve something, just because you don't agree with the way he's done things. You can always design a TT kit YOURSELF, prove it, bulletproof it and come tell us about it. I assure you, you will get the same respect Greg deserves.
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Greg Gordon
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Post by Greg Gordon »

Here we go, well, I knew this would happen. I will respond to all of Patzo's remarks even though they are totally devoid of any facts. So in no particular order, here we go...

First of all my dyno numbers are not "imaginary". I don't even know what you mean by that. The supercharger kit has been dynoed by two different dynos about 800 miles away from each other. My stock 2.5 motor was dynoed on a Dyno Jet brand dyno which is a highly regarded unit. The RAW DATA numbers are posted on my web site. The conversions are correct. Plus someone else who I have never even met has also dynoed my supercharger kit on a 3.0 with good results. I just don't see how you can justify calling the results "imaginary".

I think it's quite shamefull to call my results "imaginary" and state that you have "REAL" rwhp results implying that I don't. Frankely if two different people dynoing two different cars on two different dynos 800 miles apart and then one of those cars WINNING a SCCA race don't qualify as real then I don't know what I more I can do to convince you.

You refer to this as a "so called performance upgrade". If a jump from 154 to 236 horsepower is not a performance upgrade then I just don't know what is. Perhaps you could define "performance upgrade" for me.

You call the 4th generation Eaton a "poorly chosen supercharger type", "20 year old technology" and something else derogatory. This indicates a total lack of understanding of superchargers. You certainly could not buy this supercharger 20 years ago, the design changes over time have been massive. So have the improvements in efficiency. Saying it's old technology is just stupid, it would be like me saying your turbochargers are old technology. After all, I drove 1965 Turbo Corvair once and it sucked!

If you think it's such a poor supercharger perhaps you should write to Aston Martin, Mini, G.M., Ford, Mercedes and a few others since they would probably like to know. The fact is they use it because it gives the best results on mild streetable motors.

You say the point of modifing is to keep up with modern rivals. Well... I have done that, in fact it beats them. I have the race results to prove it, and by the way it beat a lot of turbo 4 valve per cylinder cars with modern engine management.

"Crappy piping setup"? You just don't know what you are talking about. I used all the highest quality parts in the piping. It should last forever and I have proven it gives good performance. Plus it installs and removes easily. It certainly meets all of my criteria for qualtiy stuff.

Regarding the dyno sheet. I will get it on my web site eventually. In the meantime I will fax a copy to any customer of mine in the U.S. who wants to see it.

Do I want to compare to your dyno results or anyone elses? Sure as soon as someone else makes and offers for sale an equivalent kit and tests it on a STOCK 2.5. Since in the past (check the old forum) Patzo's idea of "stock" has included, full engine management, larger runners, porting, elf racing fuel, etc it's kind of hard to compare results on a level playing field. I have no doubt he can generate a dyno sheet saying whatever he wants.

Patzo, when you offer a BOLT on kit for $3299 that gives better numbers and have a description of it on a website (do you even have a website?) let me know. Of course I know you won't, not because you don't want to but because you can't. You are all talk and no action. It's easy to sit there and criticize, it's another thing to get off your but and do it.

I am waiting.
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Post by Greg Gordon »

Jim K, thanks for the comments. I appreciate it however don't let yourself get caught up in this. I am afraid it's going to get ugly.

I am through taking this vague unsubstatiated crap. The last time Patzo and his crew did this (old forum), I was content to just take it, since I knew I would eventually have results that would prove I was right and they were wrong.

Patzo is jealous and upset, so this may get messy.
fuzzysi
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Post by fuzzysi »

i wouldnt think that the patzo post even justified a response.

hopefully admin will delete it soon, so as to avoid the degeneration of this very interesting thread, as happened on the old forum.
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Andrew.b
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Post by Andrew.b »

Don't bother going there Greg - the guy is clearly an idiot.


Peace - we dont need this sh*t
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Steve R
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Post by Steve R »

Please don't get drawn into a bitch fight like last time, Greg's put TONS of hard work into this and explained every step of the way, in a fashion that's beyond reproach.

I expect and hope Patzo is on his own with those opinions.
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Greg Gordon
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Post by Greg Gordon »

Thanks guys, Well, it seems every time Patzo posts I get an a couple e mails from people who say to ignore him. Alright, from now on I will ignore him and not get sucked into this :)
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Barry
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Post by Barry »

Patzo-If your going to post stuff,say something constructive man.By all means differ,but your attitude sucks big time.

Greg,what do I say bud??

Barry
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
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Post by John in Denver »

When I first read Patzo's post I thought it was from one of those strays who find the site by accident and declare "all Alfas suck" or something like that, but Patzo is a registered user so I assume he has some interest. Now if Patzo has a prejudice against all supercharging and holds the same views about Nuspeed superchargers and all those other companies that make similar bolt-on enhancements (all for around Greg's price and all claiming around the same performance increase) then (I suppose) that's OK. At least it would be consistent. ... but then it would be polite to point this out and not appear to be complaining about Greg's product alone.

As for suggesting that it is all a con job. Well, it wouldn't last very long would it, given the frequency of posts on this site? The first person to buy a kit from Greg and to find that it offered no improvement would be the last person to buy one. So that would be about one (maybe 2) sales. Then poor old Greg would have gone to an awful lot of effort to make his $3k - $6K> He would amost deserve it.

Personally, I'm still salting away my $$ to come up with the lousy $3k to bolt on this beauty (though I would prefer red conduit to the yellow if you can manage it Greg). I suppose I should also be considering the extra cost in tyres if I get into the habit of spinning them at 40 mph. :shock: :shock:
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Post by Greg Gordon »

Hi John. There is a lot of prejudice against superchargers which stems from the MYTH that the energy to spin Turbochargers is somehow free or "wasted energy" being put to use. I think that's where all this started.

Even Sport Compact Car magazine which is a publication heavily biased toward turbos admits in the current issue on news stands that at 8 pounds of boost or less the energy used to spin an Eaton blower is LESS than the energy used to spin a Turbo.

You want Red? So do I, unfourtunatly the company that makes the silicone couplers I use wont make them in anything but Yellow. I have tried to lean on them but with no luck.

The first kit has been sold, the results have been posted all over the internet by the owner Bill Sims.
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twinspark6
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Post by twinspark6 »

Patzo has had this going on since the old site. I love turbo cars. Owned many. I always wanted to turbo my gtv6. But after seeing greg's kit i believe it is a good one. Thanks for bringing this to the alfa community. There are many things you have to remember when turbocharging. downpipe, boost control. external or internal gate, heat and so on. Ford has supercharged their cobra. Mercedez has their amg, and so many other cars. With a few mods, i see this kit making some serious power, but for a street car this is the ideal way to go.
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Post by twinspark6 »

http://makoto.dyndns.org/membermedia/-=Fuel_Slut=-/

Look at the race beetween supercharged cobra vs amg e55. This will give you an idea. If full race is your choice then turbo might be the way to go. But to enjoy an alfa, this is it.
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Post by patzo_3l »

greg to put it simply all these replies show is that you have more friends then me in here. they mean nothing as none of them as indicated to me as yet WHY this system is so good and a good achievement. i mean some say you have put alot of work into it, maybe you have but then again so have the rest of us. i mean take fro instance gtv6gptt, he completed a twin turbo product before the age of 21 and has proved it much more reliable then your kit as it is a daily driver and has been running for over a year now. however all he got back then was critiscm. secondly u argue that certain production cars use that supercharger. that means nothing to me. i mean manufacturers use front wheel drive too does that mean its better? when manufactures build a car there are many variables and i highly doubt that when given a more expensive option they would not take it. look in my few u have yourself here a 'lemon'. now dont get upset here cause we are all on the same side but that is my view. i could argue all year with you about things like terrible fuel consumption your kit must endure and so on but i feel my points feel on deaf ears as these guys have made up their minds. i mean take for another example your "race winner" and the type of cars he was racing against. i mean none of those cars listed ever run at the top of the field when i go down to the track so i cannot see his achievement.

anyway this is not personal greg as im sure u are a great guy and im not having a go at you. basically just a taste of your own medicine which you dont seem to take very well. to put it your way..watever you create is spot on and everything else inferior.
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Post by Andrew.b »

BORING - time to move along.

Patzo- thanks for your view's mate, you said your piece, now please leave it alone.

If you don't like the kit, don't buy it - simple!
Andrew b
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