ALFAGTV6.COM

[Lancianut69]

Hi all.

Yes, I'm back again - it's amazing how quickly time passes! Well, I now have at least some of the bits to start working on and I would be grateful of any comments/pointers advice you have to offer.

To recap, I have a Lancia Montecarlo, which I intend fitting with a supercharged 3.0 litre 12 valve engine. I have an Eaton M90 blower and 2 engines. The first is a 190 hp unit, which has been rebuilt and is completely standard. The other unit is from a 164 Cloverleaf car with about 80k miles on it. I am aiming for around 250-280 bhp in a car that's built predominantly for street with the odd track day here and there. It won't be a daily driver and will be used for fun!

I'm also thinking of going with Megasquirt and EDIS-6.

My initial thought was to use the rebuilt bottom end of the 190 unit and put the Cloverleaf heads on - as well as the watercooled oil filter housing. But the compression ratio is lower on 190 unit and therefore better for forced induction, so maybe I should simply go with a change of cams?

Should I also consider water injection?

I've looked on Greg's excellent site and have shot Misty an email to see if the book is still available.

Thanks guys and look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Darren

[m4ff3w]

I'm still new to the wonders of Alfa engines, but my guess would be that the S cams would have more overlap and thusly be less than ideal for forced induction.

Please correct me if I am wrong though.

[Lancianut69]

Hi and thanks for coming back to me - that would be my thinking too! Same with the compression ratio of the standard engine over the cloverleaf is lower so I wold have thought better for supercharging.

My thinking so far is to use the cloverleaf inlet cam, standard exhaust on standard pistons and cloverleaf heads, if that's possible and worth doing - I'm like you, new to these engines and after some guidance. I've ordered Greg's book from the Hiperformance store and eagerly awaiting 'de bible'.

I saw a posting in the engine forum about porting and reshaping - but should I consider bigger valves? I just don't know. I know there's a wealth of experience and knowledge here - can anyone help?

Cheers

Darren

[Giuliettaevo2]

How do you plan on using different camshafts for intake and exhaust? The lobes for the intake and exhaustvalves are on the same camshaft...

[Lancianut69]

How do you plan on using different camshafts for intake and exhaust? The lobes for the intake and exhaustvalves are on the same camshaft...

Thank you! That's exactly what I mean about getting to know the engine!! I'm used to the twon cam 8 valve lancia engine where you can chope and change inlet and exhaust cams = obviously this is not possible with the 12 valve - you learn something every day!!

Now, std cams or cloverleaf for a supercharged engine?

Cheers!

Darren

[Giuliettaevo2]

Greg Gordon is your man ... he knows these things. He also has a book on supercharging and a lot of experience with the Alfa v6.

[Lancianut69]

I suspected as much! I have ordered his book and will devour it on receipt!! Any pointers in the meantime Greg?

Today I've been stripping out the engine and box from the 164 Cloverleaf that's currently infront of my garages. It was absolutely hoonin' it down today - but at least a little dry under the gazebo. Oh, how I wish I had a double garage to stay dry and warm in! Ah well, next year maybe!!

The engine is more or less there - got the gear selector and everything behind the right hand splashguard to strip out. The engine is minging!! And I'm a bit surprised at homw loose some of the bits were - especially the driveshaft on the left hand side and a lot of the water pipework!!

Will finish it off next Saturday and get some pics sorted.

Cheers

Darren

[Greg Gordon]

Sure! First of all, thanks for the book order. Regarding cams, I have used stock cams in both the 2.5 and 3.0, as well as 164S cams in the 2.5. I like the "S" cams the best, they may hurt power down low a little, but they add enough at high rpm to make up for it. I don't have solid data on this because no two engines I have build have been to the same specifications. Although I like the "S" cams the best, I am not saying they justify the expense involved with them. I am saying that if I had a set sitting around I would use them.

The overlap issue is highly complex. The short version is, overlap is good, too much is bad, just where to draw the line, I don't know. If you really want to do some serious reading on this subject go through the old NACA files at http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp . The reports that deal with valve overlap on supercharged engines are report numbers 1475, 1366, and 405. Download them and prepare for some serious reading.

The titles are: 1475, "An investigation of valve-overlap scavenging over a wide range of inlet and exhaust pressures." 1366, "Effect of changing manifold pressure, exhaust pressure, and valve timing on the air capacity and output of a four-stroke operated with inlet valves of various diameters and lifts." and 405, "Valve timing of engines having intake pressures higher than exhaust."

Pretty much anything you could want to know about piston engines is on that site.

Greg Gordon,
http://www.hiperformancestore.com

[Lancianut69]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the response and no problem with the book order - very much looking forward to reading it! I'll have a read through those articles, but wow, as you say heavy going! Ok, so I'm thinking that the cloverleaf cams are to be used - how about the heads? I take it they are different to the standard ones and flow better in their own right before a bit of cleaning up?

Fingers crossed by next Saturday I'll have the engine out and after a serious amount of de-gunking, I'll be able to have a look and see what I've got!

Cheers

Darren

[ChrisS]

Hi Darren,

First off I'll add another vote to talking to Greg about this. You've already done the smart thing and are buying his book and talking to him BEFORE you start!! Can't say I did it that way round myself, which is one reason I'm now having to do it all again.

I started off wanting to build a stock 164 engine with an eye to supercharging later on, but the cams were shot and I couldn't get stock pistons, so ended up with 10:1 CR and some C&B mild road cams. Made an honest 200bhp aspirated but when I put an M90 on it, it didn't work that well. I ESTIMATE it gave about your target figure when it was running about 8psi of boost. I stress estimate because a head gasket went before I could get it remapped. It was very sensitive to timing and had to run a silly-retarded map, but it did pull well...

Ultimately, I decided to go the whole hog and do it properly, so bought a set of 8.8:1 forged pistons from Greg, had some cams made by Richard Jemison (RJR) and did some mild work on the heads (valve and seat shaping). I also had the whole thing properly balanced at Vibration Free.

BUT...I still haven't put the engine in the car yet. Almost there, just waiting for the new exhaust I made to be finish-welded and I'm out of excuses.

Pitfalls to avoid.

Blower. I got one from e-bay and it turned out to be badly scored internally, so it really didn't pump very well. Latterly, I had one rebuilt to supposedly better than new spec. I had some 'quality issues' shall we say, but I am hoping it will actually perform now I've sorted out the problems.

Cam timing - don't trust timing marks - do it the old fashioned way at least once to confirm (or otherwise) if you can trust the marks on the cam caps. I prefer using the camwheel marks myself anyway.

Head gaskets - don't buy cheap ones! (I did....)


Best of luck, and keep us posted.


You say Lancia Montecarlo (rather than Scorpion), so are you are UK based? Me too if so, and you're welcome to any info I may have that could help you. My installation is a 164 engine in a Stratos copy so similar in some ways to your project....and I used to have a Monte. Lovely wee car.

[Lancianut69]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the pointers and comments. I did get my blower from eBay, but I'm happy with it's condition. I'm hoping that I can get away with using the standard slugs, which I think are around 8.5:1 CR. I've got a lot of fabrication to do on fitting the blower and getting an exhaust to fit. Really looking forward to giving MD's plan a go and using foam filled tubes as a template and then getting it welded up.

Not sure yet on cams and heads, but hoping I can use standard or cloverleaf units, without the need of getting my own made - that must have cost you a fortune!

Yep, based in the UK, just outside Newbury - where are you? Any info would be gratefully received, Funnily enough, the 'standard' engine came from a Stratos replica in Huddersfield - I love them and will build one at some point, but I want to get my Monte finished first! ;o)) Did you catch top gear on Sunday?

Cheers

Darren

[ChrisS]

Hi Darren,

I was just unlucky with the M90 I got from e-bay I suppose. I went through a phase of buying superchargers at one point. 2 x M45 (1 was like new, 1 was used but excellent) I decided these were really a bit too small, a couple of M112 units, both OK-ish but decided these would be too big, then the M90, which looked OK initially until I stripped it to repair a broken stud - it was scored to hell inside. Looked like it had sucked up something very abrasive at some point. It did work, but I had to spin it way quicker than expected to make sensible boost.

Stock 164 3l 12V CR is 9.5:1, the 'S' is 10:1. Stock cams are fine as Greg says (he should know - he's done this often enough!), it's just a question of if they are any good or not. The 12V V6 has something of an appetite for camshafts it seems. I'm no expert, but of the half dozen 12V motors I've had to bits from various sources, all have had wear on the exhaust cam lobes (and followers) ranging from mild to 'good grief'. I couldn't find any decent used cams the first time I did this, so went with some C&B mild road jobs (cheaper than new stock ones from Alfa). This time round, again, I needed cams as the 'donor' engine yet again had excessive cam wear so I had to decide which way to go. I figured the C&B cams didn't suit supercharging, again, couldn't find any decent stock ones so talked to Richard about it. TBH, a set of cams and vernier pulleys (essential for non-stock cams or stock cams with shaved heads) from Richard really weren't that painful in the grand scheme, and I now have a pair of cams designed for precisely what I want from the engine. Won't get that buying a set of cams designed for tweaked aspirated, as I found out....


I'm near Worcester, so not a million miles away. I did indeed see Top Gear. To say that generated 'discussion' on the Strat enthusiasts site (as well as others) would be an understatement! Personally I quite enjoyed it, although it's a shame the lap was a set up comedy job rather than an honest best-effort. Then again, the car they used wasn't optimised for tarmac (understatement alert...). My car was in PPC magazine back in April (I think) and in AutoItalia in June along with 3 others from our club. The PPC mag has a bit of detail you might find interesting for your project if you can find a copy.


Cheers

[ChrisS]

Another 'gotcha' I just remembered, don't forget to use resistor plugs if you swap from coil & dizzy to wasted spark, and Greg's book will recommend a cooler plug too. I think I went for BPR8ES on mine.

[Lancianut69]

Hi Chris,

Fingers crossed I lucked out with my M90 purchase - I guess it remains to be seen! ;o) Sounds like the Cloverleaf engine is going to be surplus to requirements, with the exception of the oil cooling. I hear you on the cams decision - fingers crossed I won't need to go that route and I have everything I need.

Where would you suggest locating a gasket set from?

Worcester is not far at all - may have to drop in sometime! Will have to have a look at the Straos sites for the discussions - I thought that the skit on track would produce some comment! So obviously not set up for the job in hand - or is it a case of a bad workman blaming his tools?? ;o)

Is your car the green Strat in the mag? Or are you Chris Smith, he also with a green Strat with graphite spoiler and he of Ally Rads?

Thanks for the pointers on plugs - I was thinking of going Megasquirt and EDIS 6?

Cheers

Darren

[ChrisS]

Hi Darren,

I get my gaskets sets from EB Spares. They use Goetze head gaskets in the kits. About £200 for a head set. Crank seals and some other gaskets from Alfa direct. I usually use Mangoletsi as their mail order is good.

I don't think anyone doubts that the Stig can drive the car - he held power slides no trouble at all and managed 30 odd laps with no spins until prompted to by the director. Just TG comedy is all.

I'm the fat bald ugly one in the magazine article, not Chris Smith.


I'm sure Megasquirt will work fine, I've no experience of them myself though. I use an Emerald ECU on mine.

Managed a few hours on mine yesterday - almost ready to swap motors out now, just ran out of daylight.