ALFAGTV6.COM

[Mats]

Don't blame the system if you have sub-par components.

My point is; adding complexity for complexitys sake is wrong. Just making a good CAS mounting point and trigger wheel is difficult enough.

Drawing conclusions on why manufacturers do things is also difficult just like Ben says. It might be due to line speeds (one main low voltage connector), cost (probably), mass (yes, weight!), serviceability or whatever. What the manufacturers do is not always to ger the most power from the cars. A good example is the BMW M60 V8, was 4.0 liters and went to 4.4 liters, same power output but lower tune. A cost ratio, simplex camchains and a lot of similar changes to "simpler" components.

So if you need to buy more expensive CPUs to get "sequential everything" and make a lot of special components, can you really motivate it?

[Duk]

Don't blame the system if you have sub-par components.

My point is; adding complexity for complexitys sake is wrong. Just making a good CAS mounting point and trigger wheel is difficult enough.

So if I'm using a 'sub-par' (manufacturer supplied) component that doesn't work well enough for what I'm trying to do, that's 1 thing?
If I suggest using an apparently unnecessary manufacturer type of arrangement, that's another thing?
But it's fine to use a system that is totally different and adds complexity, like your MSD CDI and I'm guessing a big fat set of ignition leads that is supposedly cheaper to set up than a multi coil system???

[SydneyJules]

Haha trust u mats! Why not seek efficiency if it's there to be achieved?
If making more power while burning less fuel, through better fuel and ignition control can be had, then why wouldn't you? Your argument will go along the lines of 'the money you will save in fuel for the extra cost of setting up direct fire will take years to see a benefit' to which I'll reply- I'm not in a hurry to sell my car, and one less alfa blowing unburnt fuel out on every redline is good for the cause!
As for sequential fi, my point was, for 1000 bucks aud u get an ecu that will run it- it hasn't cost you anymore to have it, so why not? Your engine will like you for it and you'll give OPEC less money to turn Dubai into Miami!!

And probably make more power and torque in the process!

Let's face it- we deal in playing with older cars- as many modern tricks as we can get will not only give us a chance at parity, but will also keep our alfas a bit more relevant

[Mats]

Wow, are you really that pissed off..?

Not sure if I understand you correctly but I'll break it down the way I see it:

GTV6 ECU retrofit
Single coil:

-CPU
-temp sensors (depending on the system, some can use factory sensors)
-TPS

Multi coil/sequential injection

-CPU (speced higher then above, probably more expensive)
-temp sensors (depending on the system, some can use factory sensors)
-TPS
-Crank angle setup Trigger wheel and sensor bracket
-Home/phase trigger setup
-6 COP- coils long enough to fit the GTV6 plug wells. These will also need to be fitted somehow. Welding on fixing points?

The CAS can use the stock dizzy trigger but that will have poor resolution. Possibly one of the "features" is to delete the distributor and that won't work then. In that case you need to figure out how to drive the oil pump as well.

Quite different in my book anyway. Both will need a new harness or reworked stock, much more work needed to rework the COP install naturally.

And about my MSD, have you ever fitted one? Move the stock coil wires from coil posts to the MSD and replace them with another set from the MSD, plus and minus to the MSD. Done.
Plug leads "must be" special type according to MSD but I've never seen a set that doesn't work to be honest.
The spark produced is quite insane.

[Duk]

Wow, are you really that pissed off..?

I'm guessing that this is directed at me? If it is, "No, not at all."
I am having a dig and to some degree calling you a bit of a hypocrite.
What after market system are you using in your race car Mats? Surely you aren't basing your car around some stone aged Motronic system???
If your system can't run waste spark off of the 60-2 wheel, then get a better 1.

For the crank angle sensor, why not adapt a sensor from a common car that has a functional sensor already? I'm (SLOWLY) adding the complete factory system from a common local car that used an early (mid-late '80s) Nissan engine and engine management system.
While still a distributor based system, it uses the same basic crank angle sensor system that was common to lots of Nissan's of that era. The same CAS is an easy set up for most Aussie after market systems.
Same said for ignition coils. We have the common as mud Holden (Buick) V6 engine. While still requiring a set of leads, their coil packs are cheap, readily available and quite capable of dealing with decent combustion pressures.

As for the MSD 6A. No I haven't used 1, but I never wrote off the idea either. My point is to try and utilize manufacturer style of engineering. I did think about using a 6A on my MR2, based on some of your comments about their effectiveness, but I decided to use what I have and am going to use some spare Nissan coils that I have.
I did look at using a CDI system from AEM, but their own forum had to many stories of failure (of the AEM CDI), so I wrote that idea off and just bought a cheap, solid 4 channel igniter from 1 of the local system suppliers (I wouldn't use their computers tho).

[Mats]

Good, your message sounded a bit agitated but then again it's the internet. Everything sounds like an insult.

I've got a DTA S80, capable of running a V8 Fully sequential + VVTs and antispin, launch control and yada yada... A good system. Still I will keep the dizzy and run batch fire on the injectors.
Basically I had plans for COP or wastefire but really couldn't find any performance gains over batch fire and dizzy + the added complexity. Less parts means less that can break.
For a high strung N/A you might (not at all a given) find performance gains from having sequential injection with a controlled end angle but with my somewhat mild cam timing there is nothing to gain. Again ignition, everything I want is a fat spark at the right time and the Dizzy + MSD will deliver (and then some).

Why S80 you might ask, well, it was just slightly more expensive then the less able systems and you never now what kind of crazy needs you might develop later.

[Evert]

So working trough this thread... What's the final verdict?
Not a new Motec I hope.
Way to expensive for a problem like this. I bought a Motec M6 for my biturbo project.
Then a good ECU is needed.

I also have a GTV6 3.1 with the stock Bosch J-tronic. I hate the combination so I am very interested in a friendly prices solution for this problem.

[slyalfa]

if you look at my VEMS install it address most of this
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine- ... verde.html

I use VW COPS as they are super cheap. and I have a 'S' block so the oil pump spins faster so a oil pump dizzy can not be used any ways.
I think the crank trigger is the #1 improvement. getting rid of all the spark scatter is a big gain. And the motor is just so much smother. I am still running wasted. I just fire 2 cops at the same time. As I never mounted a cam pickup, the wires are there. It just worked so well I never bothered.
There is no point in making some strange trigger wheel as Alfa made a nice one you just need to install the parts.

I think the COPS look nice. but if you have a working dizzy there is some befits to use a single good coil with a CDI. But do not trigger off the dizzy, just use it to point to correct plug.
Trigger off the crank. The COPs are prone to fail do to heat and vibration. The good new you can still drive if some fail. I poped 3 on the left side when I got water down the spark plug holes.( I was stupid to wash with hi PSI water and not check) the steam after many hrs of driving made it in the the cops and they failed. but I could still drive on just 3 cyl. felt about as gutless as the 2.5l gold I have.