Jim K
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Jim K »

Your description is what I always thought, but there is no procedure for any adjustment/recognition in the manual I have; it just asks you to measure voltage at the two ends of the pot (0 and 5V) and to see if you have a linear and smooth voltage rise at the wiper as the throttle is opened . Sure enough, its a fixed position potentiometer with no associated TPS. I agree there must be some kind of setting procedure like in other cars -turn on key, after a few seconds press throttle 100% then release , turn key off- but I can't find something similar. I already have a cct which I can attach to the injector (+) supply relay to cut fuel off, but that defeats the idea of doing it 'the right way'. I already wrote to Stephan and I hope he can easily solve this! Other than this, I'll ask an Alfa garage with the Examiner tester to see if his files cover the 164Q4.
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by slyalfa »

I have to agree I like the pic.
BTW do you run with any kind of CAT?

I would check if the TPS is backwards. are you using a 164 or a 75 buterfly?
was the wires cut and spliced? the power and ground might be swapped on the TPS

TPS might just be bad. what is the TPS voltage closed and WOT?
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by 75evo »

An old video but the sound is quite mean :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxYy5iLOh0g
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Jim K »

Been 'out and around' for some time and getting really hot in the last week, with up to 43*C... Not much incentive to play with cars...
Getting back to the 'no-fuel-cut' issue of the 24v which is still baffling. To confuse things even more, it looks like the Alfa manual is wrong (again...). Sure enough, it states voltage must increase with the opening throttle, BUT, with the std wire connections, the opposite happens...The same manual, in some other page for testing another 24v 3liter has the wire terminals reversed for the exact same test...go figure! Well, I switched the wires around so voltage would actually increase with an opening throttle and still nothing. I hooked up an LED to an injector with a long wire so that I can see injector operation while driving and there's no cutt-off on deceleration with either connection scheme -the same LED in my 12v car turns off, as it should. Stephan Lenior proposed checking the obvious parts, so I'm back in square one. Even bought a new throttle pot (45€) and as expected its no better than the one in the car. I hate to admit defeat in such matters, but it looks like I'll have to install my little cct, which will cut off the injectors' 12v supply as required, and reinstate it when revs drop under 1600-1700rpm (this is the value used by Alfa in these cars as per the manuals). I suspect the problem has something to do with the fact that several ecu pins are left floating (not connected) as the application is lacking all 164Q4-specific connections like Viscomatic, ABS, speedo signals etc. Before I do this though, I'll wait for the return of the 4 ecu's I sent for repair...A German company said they couldn't fix them, so I sent them to someone in Holland; I sincerely hope they can do better! In the meantime, the Emerald K6 ecu is here and I'm waiting for a friend to make me a very short (~100mm long) adaptor harness, from the std harness Bosch 88-pin connector to the K6 one. Emerald has pre-configured the unit so the car will start and run reasonably well. From then on ...its playtime -not in this weather though! Will come back when I have news.
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by 75evo »

Great tha you finally admitted defeat, haha. Told you this bosch *********** ecus are not worth the pain and suffering , but I do get your point about making it easier for people using already available hardware.

43C? That is impossible, it's against the law in most parts of the world for that to happen. :mrgreen:
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Greg Gordon »

75evo wrote:
43C? That is impossible, it's against the law in most parts of the world for that to happen. :mrgreen:
Nope, it was 51C here in Kuwait the other day. The dewpoint was -2C making that the highest temp/dewpoint spread I have ever personally seen.

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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Jim K »

Hah, see? There's always worse! Hotter than HOT! :shock:
I found out the particular Bosch ecu's (0261203301/0261203834, without/with immobilizer) are popular with several teams racing 24v engines (mostly 2.5liters) as they are very versatile when race-mapped -don't ask me why. Maybe this is one reason there's not that many around, which fact inevitably drives up their price. Then again, there weren't that many 164Q4 made (compared to 75's or 156's) so they are not that common to begin with.
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Greg Gordon »

I just don't see any reason to use the stock systems anymore. A few new parts for an L-Jet or Motronic system quickly exceed the cost of a new programmable system.

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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by 75evo »

Very true Greg. Unless you are an absolute stickler for being period correct, in 2012, it's an absolutely bad idea to stick to old Bosch parts. If you're in the US with a modified car and want to stick to Botch parts (modified car, Bosh parts, an oxymoron), then you are certifiable destined for the white strapped jacket. :mrgreen:

The prices of new L-Jet parts is ridiculous. I think a new AFM is in the $500 range? A used one? Cheap, but hey, they're about as useless and old as your broken one.

Not only that, but try getting a guy in the US to re-map a Motronic ECU for you. An extremely rare breed, they are they ones who breed hens for their teeth.

I suspect it's not exactly the same in Europe, motronic from newer Alfas are easier to get a hold of. But then you run into unexplainable things like what JK is facing, then you really wonder if it is worth the trouble.

Sell the motronic parts to some sucker and tell them

"Are you kidding me?! Your Alfa was absolutely designed to run this part, it's the ONLY WAY to go, now give me your money!",

.... then buy a new aftermarket ECU.

:lol:
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Murray »

Hi Jim you seem so far away now :D Bye the way how are the steaks in Greece ? Now that you've mastered the mechanical side of Alfa engines you would probably love to whip one into shape with a self programable Ecu.I abandoned L-jet about 5 years ago and went with a Megasquirt.The fact that you build it yourself creates a particular relationship with the system ( the smell of solder now gets me excited :lol: )You have absolute control of pretty much everything and most importantly it's cheap.I go in there once a year just to satisfy my anal desire to find .5 hp. but other than that it has been been bulletproof track and street.I understand your desire to stay somewhat conventional but once you've performed your evil witchcraft on the heads and bottom end why not jump the fence and say goodbye to Bosch.
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Jim K »

Well, I do have the Emerald K6 as I said and I also have a new Adaptronic e420c and a new Dicktator. So that's 3 aftermarket ecu's... :shock: Now, I had bought the Dicktator some years back to install in the 12v engine but this ecu doesn't have closed loop mode (no lambda). I decided I wanted closed loop after the fact. Then I got the e420c for the same engine but later on decided to remap the std Bosch, which is easily done here on the dyno by several shops. Then came the 24v, but since I wanted to stay coil-on-plug which the e420c doesn't support (for 6cyl) I ended up getting the Emerald K6 (two weeks ago). In the meantime, the 24v was running great with the locally remapped std ecu. Over a year, $hit happened and I ended up with ...5 std ecu's for significant total cost. This is a last effort to have the 4 repaired; no sense in having 4 bad ones. When I think about it, evident stupidity destroyed the 3 units and one was bad to begin with (not paid for) so the record is not bad, only one ecu died inexplicably -but I wasn't there when it happened so I can think whatever I want... :twisted: Since I will sometime start on the 3.2liter, I want to have all 'resources' intact. I suppose one engine will run with the K6 and the other with the std ecu. More than likely, I will end up selling the 3liter 24v and the old 12v to make up some of the money lost on all this electro-mechanical stuff; no sense having these engines sit around. Besides, I still have to finish the 'good' 1.8T... :roll:
So you see there's plenty to do yet. As for dyno mapping here, I'm all for it, std ecu's or not. I don't intend to change engine configuration to the point remapping will be required. I built it the way I planned and it will stay like this until it comes out of the car, to make room for the 3.2liter.
I don't expect more power out of the K6 compared to the std ecu and frankly, I don't think aftermarket ecu's are less 'failure-prone' than std ones. They can crap out like any other electronic device.
The ability to map these things can not be considered a great advantage in a country where std ecu mapping is readily available if you don't intend changing significant engine parameters -requiring a remap.
As for cost, a total std ecu dyno map (~2-3hrs) will run ~400€. I would assume the same time will be required for an aftermarket unit. Now if you think you can map it 100% on the road alone, I will strongly disagree. I have seen similar efforts here and the dyno wins hands down every time. So, we are left with the cost of buying aftermarket and keeping the std -or buying a few more like I did. Your price for a good unit (DTA, Emerald,Haltech etc) with the needed features easily exceeds $1k. You all insist on aftermarket but where is the real gain? If you are racing the thing, I can see datalogging as the only reason, but if not? This is how I thought and stuck with std stuff which -by the way- is as good as they get as far as features: two O2's, two knock sensors, sequential injection, maf, limp home function...not too shabby for stock! :wink: So, aftermarket or not, in my mind Bosch is still king!
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by slyalfa »

As a rule if you are not tuning then it is best to use what ever your tuner is used to.
The cost of dyno/tuner time will out cost any ECU. and it is silly to pay some one to lean a new system.

There are exceptions like I see with the stock LS tuners in the states. where any decent ECU would save a ton of time even with paying them to learn it.

It is strange that it will not fuel cut.
But it got me thinking maybe the ABS input is to just disable fuel cut. So the motor breaking is constant.
ether way I would not let the inputs float. That might be doing other strange things. Best to have it tied one way or the other so things are constant.

You need to find a working car to see what the voltages are on the mystery wires and just tie yours at the same voltages. With luck they are all just fixed DC levels and not pulses or varying voltages.
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by Jim K »

...Magic phrase: find a working car...There are no 164Q4's in Greeceland!
I agree about the floating inputs but from lack of info I can't chance tying them hi/lo. The connection diagram doesn't help me one bit, either.
I got word from Holland that one of the 4 ecu's is fixed and they're working on the others...Hope to have them back soon so I can do some checking with the TPS wires -maybe backwards, hmmmm, two Alfa tech manuals offer two different voltage measurements...darn idiots! :roll:
Anyway, it was a long and poor -for most people- summer here and car-things will pick up soon. I'm getting rid of some stuff to finance the 3.2 crank.... Anyone want a new set of Catcams 1030322 for the 12v?
As Arnold said...I'll be back!
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by festy »

</de-lurk>
The older Motronics use a CTS vs RPM map to determine decel fuel cut in/out points - even though the ECUs have a pin for a speed sensor input, it's not used.

The 164Q4 ECU is a lot more complex - it works with the ABS system to prevent decel fuel cut in specific circumstances.
My guess is that without the ABS input to know road speed, it's defaulting to 'fast idle' and trying to keep the revs up because as far as the ECU is concerned, you're stationary.
LDA.jpg
LDA.jpg (26.16 KiB) Viewed 5913 times
But what's damaging your ECU(s)? A missing sensor or connection shouldn't do any damage - but an overvoltage on an input pin, or excessive current draw on an output would...
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Re: JK 24v 3liter ..at last!

Post by fedezyl »

Welcome to the forum Festy! the ECU guru is here :D
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