I hope this topic will start a new thread of interest. A friend and I are planning to develop a dedicated transaxle race car to battle some well proven 105 coupes.
Here's a challenge and a chance to share any dreams and brain doodlings (mixed with any real facts) you might have to prepare the specs of a racing 116 series GTV as if you were going to build one for yourself.
Here's the constraints:-
It must be 2 litre Alfa engine
Naturally aspirated
Must be a transxle
Presume the car is a coupe and not a sedan
The rest is open slather. What would you do to get a competive edge ? If you already a have a competitive car of this type, tell us all about it. If you're still in the dream zone like me, why not share those ideas?
I look forward to your suggestions.
MD
Your Race Car Design
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse
Your Race Car Design
Yeah Micke, I see where you are coming from. For now just put the budget aside and think what you consider the best applications and the budget may have to come up to meet it or the expectation adjusted. It is always nice to know what the possibilities might be if nothing more than just for inspiration. Know what I mean?
As for the rules, I take it they would vary from country to country and this being a more or less international site, the safest bet would be to just maintain as close as possible relationship to the original configurations but the individual componets I suppose could be enhanced for improved performance over the original but the components must be Alfa Romeo. Like I mean, it would go like a scalded cat but we don't want to be talking about whacking a 7 litre Chevy donk into an Alfa and call it an enhanced motor now would we? It just wouldn't be cricket!!
To go beyond these basic rules would mean volumes of rules which could bore everybody to death if we got bogged down with them.
So give us run down on your machine mate.
MD
As for the rules, I take it they would vary from country to country and this being a more or less international site, the safest bet would be to just maintain as close as possible relationship to the original configurations but the individual componets I suppose could be enhanced for improved performance over the original but the components must be Alfa Romeo. Like I mean, it would go like a scalded cat but we don't want to be talking about whacking a 7 litre Chevy donk into an Alfa and call it an enhanced motor now would we? It just wouldn't be cricket!!
To go beyond these basic rules would mean volumes of rules which could bore everybody to death if we got bogged down with them.
So give us run down on your machine mate.
MD
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse
There is no comparing 105 vs 116 performance. With the same power and driver quality, the 116 will beat 105's left,right and center, owing to better balance, suspension etc. There is NO way a car taking corners on three wheels will do it quicker than one on four! Suspension improvements are notable in the 116. What I think one should look for, is how to beat the M3 (1989mod.) as this is an actual problem! A historic 105 driver here in Athens (with a very fast 180hp car,close box,rollcage,sliding block etc.) drove my 3liter dinosaur in the track and came out smiling ear-to-ear, at how can a 3000lb boulder handle so nimble etc,etc. His 105 is 5,44kg/hp and my pig is 6,8. After about 10 laps with DOT tires (Bridgestone 540), his time was 2,5 seconds higher per lap from his best time with the 105 on slicks! I can't imagine where the pig would be with a 270hp 24v engine and slicks (I will know in a few months). So, you see, it is not a problem for the 116 to beat 105's. Anyway, there is enough historic data for different tracks,where it is clear that 116's prevail. Now beating the M3....? That's a challenge! We're at a loss there, as its difficult to match their engines,unless we have the 2liter 16v Autodelta VERY rare motor, which unfortunately was never developed to its full potential and never exceeded 230hp.
Neverthless, building the best car for the smallest budget is a good exercise we can all benefit from.
Regards,
Jim K.
Neverthless, building the best car for the smallest budget is a good exercise we can all benefit from.
Regards,
Jim K.
No offence but without a budget or similar there is no way you will get any response, it's a bit like saying: Please drite down everything you know about the color blue. 
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
OK, not to kill the subject here it goes.
My car would be pretty competitive in an Alfa class. It will perform pos 3-5 in our class from 36 cars. In the class I really want to drive there's no chance in hell.
Facts:
Alfetta GTV 2.0
182 hp (this is where my problems are, need 220-230 at least)
918 kg
Coil overs
Modified Roll Centers
Reduced bump steer, reduced Ackermann
Added Camber gain
Cambered DeDion
4 piston calipers around with vented disks
Close ratio TS gearbox (4 disk LSD)
Significant aerodynamic modificatins
etc, etc.
General speculation:
1) An old Nord 2.0 can only be competitive with special rules
2) If 16 valve engines are punished a TS is OK - if not you need 16V
3) Depending on rules you might need to go 24V3.0 (now we're speaking big hp and big €€)
4) If I'd start over again I'd save the trouble and buy the RSR suspension. Good value for money
www.rsracing.nl
5) If budget is not an obstacle I'd get an IMSA suspension from here:
http://www.bianchi-kopp.de/BK-041001/bk ... 41001.html
6) Depending on rules and $$ about 800-850 kg is reasonable
So, the same questions still applies
- what are you allowed to do (Beryllium DeDion??)?
- how much are you willing to spend (the DeDion mentioned above will NOT come cheap)
My car would be pretty competitive in an Alfa class. It will perform pos 3-5 in our class from 36 cars. In the class I really want to drive there's no chance in hell.
Facts:
Alfetta GTV 2.0
182 hp (this is where my problems are, need 220-230 at least)
918 kg
Coil overs
Modified Roll Centers
Reduced bump steer, reduced Ackermann
Added Camber gain
Cambered DeDion
4 piston calipers around with vented disks
Close ratio TS gearbox (4 disk LSD)
Significant aerodynamic modificatins
etc, etc.
General speculation:
1) An old Nord 2.0 can only be competitive with special rules
2) If 16 valve engines are punished a TS is OK - if not you need 16V
3) Depending on rules you might need to go 24V3.0 (now we're speaking big hp and big €€)
4) If I'd start over again I'd save the trouble and buy the RSR suspension. Good value for money
www.rsracing.nl
5) If budget is not an obstacle I'd get an IMSA suspension from here:
http://www.bianchi-kopp.de/BK-041001/bk ... 41001.html
6) Depending on rules and $$ about 800-850 kg is reasonable
So, the same questions still applies
- what are you allowed to do (Beryllium DeDion??)?
- how much are you willing to spend (the DeDion mentioned above will NOT come cheap)
Cheat!! I'm sure your competitors are totally legal <wink><wink>Micke wrote:So, the same questions still applies
- what are you allowed to do (Beryllium DeDion??)?
- how much are you willing to spend (the DeDion mentioned above will NOT come cheap)
As a wise racer once said, "if you race to be fair, you'll learn a lot about tail lights".
Said racer was very successful in a 2.5 GTV6 in SCCA GT2.
-Peter
- Attachments
-
- jemison.jpg (95.38 KiB) Viewed 13044 times
The true joy of an Alfa Romeo is behind the wheel.
Your Race Car Design
TO jim,mats,peter,micke,zamani.
Thanks guys for taking out the time to contribute to this topic. It doesn't take a genious to figure out that so many of the site visitors are very interested in getting the best possible performance out of their machine either for road or race. It the perperpetual quest.
Collectively as enthusiasts we have a wealth of knowledge and in sharing that via this site that makes us an Alfa fraternity.
I am very sure that by the time this thread has its course, anybody that wants to build a serious race car is going to have heaps of advice of how to get there.
At the end of the day that was my simple intention to share what makes a good Alfa a seriously good Alfa on the track.
I have learned a lot of useful information from what has been said already. I mean , a Beryllium De Dion !! Holy sheit !! Never knew that they even existed- and that weigh reduction target seems unbeleivable !!
One thing that I would really love to know is where to source a 4 valve per cylinder head for the 2 Litre motor. If memory serves me correct Jim, I thought the Auto Delta motor was a carburretted engine but it made 110 bhp per litre which is the kind of target I would like to aim for. Quite a few guys in my club running 105's are getting 185bhp with nothing very special at all.
I beleive the 4 valve per cylinder heads are a pointer for these possibilities but they are like rocking horse shit-impossible to find or are they? Does anyone know a source?
I think it would be very usefull to share details of other various modifications that have proved very useful in your car or a car you know of. Brakes, DRIVELINES !! clutches,gearchanges, pad formulations etc.
Enough ramblings , I'm getting off.
MD
Thanks guys for taking out the time to contribute to this topic. It doesn't take a genious to figure out that so many of the site visitors are very interested in getting the best possible performance out of their machine either for road or race. It the perperpetual quest.
Collectively as enthusiasts we have a wealth of knowledge and in sharing that via this site that makes us an Alfa fraternity.
I am very sure that by the time this thread has its course, anybody that wants to build a serious race car is going to have heaps of advice of how to get there.
At the end of the day that was my simple intention to share what makes a good Alfa a seriously good Alfa on the track.
I have learned a lot of useful information from what has been said already. I mean , a Beryllium De Dion !! Holy sheit !! Never knew that they even existed- and that weigh reduction target seems unbeleivable !!
One thing that I would really love to know is where to source a 4 valve per cylinder head for the 2 Litre motor. If memory serves me correct Jim, I thought the Auto Delta motor was a carburretted engine but it made 110 bhp per litre which is the kind of target I would like to aim for. Quite a few guys in my club running 105's are getting 185bhp with nothing very special at all.
I beleive the 4 valve per cylinder heads are a pointer for these possibilities but they are like rocking horse shit-impossible to find or are they? Does anyone know a source?
I think it would be very usefull to share details of other various modifications that have proved very useful in your car or a car you know of. Brakes, DRIVELINES !! clutches,gearchanges, pad formulations etc.
Enough ramblings , I'm getting off.
MD
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse
Yes, the new TS engines out of the newer Alfas are the new modular Fiat engine, it has noting to do with either the old Alfa engine or even the old Fiat/Lancia (Lampredi) engine.
Beryllium de-Dion? Sounds toxic and heavy as hell, Isn't that what they make the ballast weights from in F1? Surely you are joking?
My car is roughly like Mickes,
GTV, 900Kg (still has stuff to throw out, like the heater), coilovers, modified de-Dion, custom front lower control arm and mounting point, short/fast steering rack, spherical bearings replacing rubber everywhere etc etc...
Still has a standard 2.0 motor though and no aero stuff.
Beryllium de-Dion? Sounds toxic and heavy as hell, Isn't that what they make the ballast weights from in F1? Surely you are joking?
My car is roughly like Mickes,
GTV, 900Kg (still has stuff to throw out, like the heater), coilovers, modified de-Dion, custom front lower control arm and mounting point, short/fast steering rack, spherical bearings replacing rubber everywhere etc etc...
Still has a standard 2.0 motor though and no aero stuff.
Mats Strandberg
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
-Scuderia Rosso- Now burned to the ground...
-onemanracing.com-
-Strandberg.photography-
GTV 2000 -77 - Died in the fire.
155 V6 Sport -96 - Sold!
MD !!! Congrats,man!! "Rocking-horse shit!!" Hahahah! What a laugh, I haven't heard that one before,hahah!
Ok, back to business now, the AD 16v 2liter was first used in the racing 116 (both coupe and 4-door) from 1972 on. AFAIK there is a complete engine for sale in Belgium right now, one that I was going to buy in 1989 as it was here in Greece in a 4-door AD 116 official race car (AD for Autodelta).The engine was sold in '89 and now its for sale again,I hear. These engines were only available with slide throttle Spica, monosleeve (with different bore centers than the GTAm,due to the now existing 2liter block) and as I said, made 230hp very close to the 8000rpm limiter. They were next to useless below 4500 though-strictly good for long track use. Had they been developed further, I'm sure they would become a worthy opponent to the Ford BDG used in the MKII Escorts, making up to 260hp (same architecture). The 16v engines were in Alfa's arsenal since 1964 in 1300/1500/1600/1900 capacities. The 2000 variant was added in 1972. As you may suspect, it has nothing to do with later Fiat/Alfa 16v units. Those of you with the old AR 'Competition Advisory Service' will be able to read up on various versions of the 14v as it was offered back in the late '60's and early '70's. It even has complete engine....prices!
Regards,
Jim.
Ok, back to business now, the AD 16v 2liter was first used in the racing 116 (both coupe and 4-door) from 1972 on. AFAIK there is a complete engine for sale in Belgium right now, one that I was going to buy in 1989 as it was here in Greece in a 4-door AD 116 official race car (AD for Autodelta).The engine was sold in '89 and now its for sale again,I hear. These engines were only available with slide throttle Spica, monosleeve (with different bore centers than the GTAm,due to the now existing 2liter block) and as I said, made 230hp very close to the 8000rpm limiter. They were next to useless below 4500 though-strictly good for long track use. Had they been developed further, I'm sure they would become a worthy opponent to the Ford BDG used in the MKII Escorts, making up to 260hp (same architecture). The 16v engines were in Alfa's arsenal since 1964 in 1300/1500/1600/1900 capacities. The 2000 variant was added in 1972. As you may suspect, it has nothing to do with later Fiat/Alfa 16v units. Those of you with the old AR 'Competition Advisory Service' will be able to read up on various versions of the 14v as it was offered back in the late '60's and early '70's. It even has complete engine....prices!
Regards,
Jim.
Afew months ago I was playing with the idea of fitting the "new"ts 16v head to the 105/116 sub assy.It can be done-I just have not taken it further,I reckon this can make for an awsome motor...
The studs fit the head perfectly,have put the head on already-The bore centers are slightly off,but not anything that will scupper the project..
Brian,How much of a difference did your headers make over the previous log type man. you were using??Give us some specs please..
Barry
The studs fit the head perfectly,have put the head on already-The bore centers are slightly off,but not anything that will scupper the project..
Brian,How much of a difference did your headers make over the previous log type man. you were using??Give us some specs please..
Barry
French cars are shit and shit expensive to service and bloody awful and unreliable and expensive and friends don't let friends drive french cars and you wait years for parts.
Barry,
The original setup generated 240 whp @ 7200 with 15 psi of boost.
With the tuned header and split turbine inlet the engine made 234 whp with 10 psi of boost. It also "seems" more responsive.
Jim and I calculated power at 15 psi to be 283 whp.
I have NOT dynoed it at 15psi yet and please also note that while the same dyno was used there had been a software update between the original header and the "tuned" header runs.
Last fall Jim picked up a wide-band O2 sensor that we were able to pigtail in to the TEC-II. I wanted to confirm AFR's at high boost. Turns out I was a little too rich (10:1), especially mid rpm's. By leaning out the AFR the car "felt" much more responsive mid rpm.
So what does it all mean...? Whilst on the freeway a few months ago I found a Viper GTS on my tail. I accellerated away in 5th gear only to see the Viper not follow. Ah well. A few minutes later he was on my tail again and this time I could tell he wanted to play but traffic would not let us. A few miles later, traffic cleared and we were side by side. I dropped to fourth and we both took off. I lifted at about 135-140mph and he was 2 car lengths behind me.
As I was slowing he came up beside me and gave me a thumbs up, I returned the nicety and went about my way.
Clearly a Viper has the legs to out run me beyond 150 or so, but for what I use this car for I am more than satisfied. With that being said though... I do keep thinking about ways to increase power. Seems to be part of the passion!
So what do you reccomend next Barry? Ball bearing turbo? Twin Spark Turbo? 16V Turbo? 3.7 twin turbo?
Decisions... decisions... (grin)
-Brian
The original setup generated 240 whp @ 7200 with 15 psi of boost.
With the tuned header and split turbine inlet the engine made 234 whp with 10 psi of boost. It also "seems" more responsive.
Jim and I calculated power at 15 psi to be 283 whp.
I have NOT dynoed it at 15psi yet and please also note that while the same dyno was used there had been a software update between the original header and the "tuned" header runs.
Last fall Jim picked up a wide-band O2 sensor that we were able to pigtail in to the TEC-II. I wanted to confirm AFR's at high boost. Turns out I was a little too rich (10:1), especially mid rpm's. By leaning out the AFR the car "felt" much more responsive mid rpm.
So what does it all mean...? Whilst on the freeway a few months ago I found a Viper GTS on my tail. I accellerated away in 5th gear only to see the Viper not follow. Ah well. A few minutes later he was on my tail again and this time I could tell he wanted to play but traffic would not let us. A few miles later, traffic cleared and we were side by side. I dropped to fourth and we both took off. I lifted at about 135-140mph and he was 2 car lengths behind me.
As I was slowing he came up beside me and gave me a thumbs up, I returned the nicety and went about my way.
Clearly a Viper has the legs to out run me beyond 150 or so, but for what I use this car for I am more than satisfied. With that being said though... I do keep thinking about ways to increase power. Seems to be part of the passion!
So what do you reccomend next Barry? Ball bearing turbo? Twin Spark Turbo? 16V Turbo? 3.7 twin turbo?
Decisions... decisions... (grin)
-Brian