the manual i'm working with is GTV6 / milano based. the car is doing some pretty odd things. lights , horn , wipers are seemingly ok.
but when the battery is hooked up the fuel pump starts running with the key off. remove fuse in position 12 and pump stops. turn key to on position ..nothing. turn key to start position the pump starts to run again. engine refuses to crank over.
the starter is a fresh remanufactured unit. positive power up to junction on firewall by wiper motor. black lead to energize solenoid connected to solenoid. i tried to jump the solenoid and not anything , not even a "click"(heck at this point i'd be happy to get it to go "clunk"!).
i was in contact with glen in maine and have lost his phone number. steve in virginia...well it's still the same car.....and it refuses to leave!
i finally have all the tropic air unit parts and am finishing the under dash installation next week. all instruments are out of the dash as of now and am awaiting the correction of wiring gremlins before final assembling the dash. HELP!
oh! also after much confusion and back and forth reading in the manual , the wire colors and locations seem to be milano and from what i can tell a bit like GTV6 but not exactly right.
a brief reminder (to those of you who have read my postings elsewhere), this car has not run in now about 18 years due to a serious accident. this car is literally a turn of the key , set engine timing and some new tires away from being given to it's owner. that is a huge step from where it was 1 year ago when i recieved it in pieces with my friend begging to have me take a look at it for him. it was a rolling shell acompanied by a chevy van load of boxes of zillions of pieces.....a huge model car kit!
thank you!
chuck
-
crusaderchuck
- Silver
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:58 am
- Location: Orwigsburg, PA
1984 electrical gremlins
Last edited by crusaderchuck on Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Charles F. Christ Sr.
"Chuck"
"Chuck"
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
Chuck, sounds like a short .
Could be the battery cable cover (i had to replace the whole cable once) Especially after accident.
Could be short in steering column (bad ign switch)
Strange that you can;t get starter to work. Did you test before install?
Obviously, fuel pump should only work with key in proper position and from the flapper microswitch in AFM.
Check that someone else did not rig up some other wiring messes...
Could be the battery cable cover (i had to replace the whole cable once) Especially after accident.
Could be short in steering column (bad ign switch)
Strange that you can;t get starter to work. Did you test before install?
Obviously, fuel pump should only work with key in proper position and from the flapper microswitch in AFM.
Check that someone else did not rig up some other wiring messes...
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
Chuck, sounds like a short .
Could be the battery cable cover (i had to replace the whole cable once) Especially after accident.
Could be short in steering column (bad ign switch)
Strange that you can;t get starter to work. Did you test before install?
Obviously, fuel pump should only work with key in proper position and from the flapper microswitch in AFM.
Check that someone else did not rig up some other wiring messes...
Could be the battery cable cover (i had to replace the whole cable once) Especially after accident.
Could be short in steering column (bad ign switch)
Strange that you can;t get starter to work. Did you test before install?
Obviously, fuel pump should only work with key in proper position and from the flapper microswitch in AFM.
Check that someone else did not rig up some other wiring messes...
-
crusaderchuck
- Silver
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:58 am
- Location: Orwigsburg, PA
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
presently have whole instrumentation out of dash , column cover out as well. can not find any wires that look damaged or cut other than the tropic air wires that i'm repairing as someone removed that unit and just cut wires and put tape on cut ends. wish they'd just unplugged it all and stuffed up into the dash(hey i can dream...)
starter is a brand new rebuilt unit. i never bench tested it as it new , with no signs of ever being installed , mechanically or electrically. now looking at the possibility of removal...with evrything assembled.....well that has me very distressed.
every part of this car from firewall forward was removed nut by bolt by someone who obviously knew nothing about european cars. stuff disassembled for no reason. whole exhaust , drive shaft , washer bottle , coolant bottle and numerous other parts and all hardware was just dumped in boxes! torn motor mounts , siezed water pump , damaged timing belt tensioner(and it was updated to remove oil pressure type) and all kinds of wierd parts from a chrysler mini van A/C unit , whole mercedes 6 cyl of head bolts and injection hardware as well as a saab turbo and some of that item's plumbing were in the boxes! this car was hit on the right front. even the hood hinge bolts are missing!
my friend's uncle has a blood red 1984 exactly like this car. this is his "dream car". i'm trying very hard to get it not only back together but do it right. BTW, i was the shop alfa parts counter man for JH bennet in allentown Pa. . i fear that someone may have unplugged the harness from the fuse box and / or juggled some wires at this point.
my book shows pink wires for fuel pump power and if that is true then the white wire feeding power to pump is all wrong let alone position in fuse box.
also , i have what looks like an unused green wire coming from ign. switch that only has power in the "start" position. no corresponding wire in harness plug.
thank you!
chuck.
back to trying to figure out where the tropic air's blue wire from the relay goes in the main center dash switch......
starter is a brand new rebuilt unit. i never bench tested it as it new , with no signs of ever being installed , mechanically or electrically. now looking at the possibility of removal...with evrything assembled.....well that has me very distressed.
every part of this car from firewall forward was removed nut by bolt by someone who obviously knew nothing about european cars. stuff disassembled for no reason. whole exhaust , drive shaft , washer bottle , coolant bottle and numerous other parts and all hardware was just dumped in boxes! torn motor mounts , siezed water pump , damaged timing belt tensioner(and it was updated to remove oil pressure type) and all kinds of wierd parts from a chrysler mini van A/C unit , whole mercedes 6 cyl of head bolts and injection hardware as well as a saab turbo and some of that item's plumbing were in the boxes! this car was hit on the right front. even the hood hinge bolts are missing!
my friend's uncle has a blood red 1984 exactly like this car. this is his "dream car". i'm trying very hard to get it not only back together but do it right. BTW, i was the shop alfa parts counter man for JH bennet in allentown Pa. . i fear that someone may have unplugged the harness from the fuse box and / or juggled some wires at this point.
my book shows pink wires for fuel pump power and if that is true then the white wire feeding power to pump is all wrong let alone position in fuse box.
also , i have what looks like an unused green wire coming from ign. switch that only has power in the "start" position. no corresponding wire in harness plug.
thank you!
chuck.
back to trying to figure out where the tropic air's blue wire from the relay goes in the main center dash switch......
Last edited by crusaderchuck on Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Charles F. Christ Sr.
"Chuck"
"Chuck"
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
AFAIK, it is generally the pink wire for fuel pump. Perhaps get your hands on a used harness(es) from APE as a guide...
the older gtv6 owner manuals have decent fold out wiring diagrams....
of course, all the necessary relays are required if using standard harness (like the dual relay passenger side engine bay and the ignition module under dash (above the fuse box)
Original (dealer) tropic air has a few extra relays (2-3) mounted up front near coil.
I think tropic air was wired into the fan speed (HI) position as well as the fan speed resistor in engine bay.
When the fan was turned to HI speed, it activated the tropic-air system.
I have all the tropic air parts in a box(except few cut hoses to dash). If you are in USA, I could send out some parts if needed.
the older gtv6 owner manuals have decent fold out wiring diagrams....
of course, all the necessary relays are required if using standard harness (like the dual relay passenger side engine bay and the ignition module under dash (above the fuse box)
Original (dealer) tropic air has a few extra relays (2-3) mounted up front near coil.
I think tropic air was wired into the fan speed (HI) position as well as the fan speed resistor in engine bay.
When the fan was turned to HI speed, it activated the tropic-air system.
I have all the tropic air parts in a box(except few cut hoses to dash). If you are in USA, I could send out some parts if needed.
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
AFAIK, it is generally the pink wire for fuel pump. Perhaps get your hands on a used harness(es) from APE as a guide...
the older gtv6 owner manuals have decent fold out wiring diagrams....
of course, all the necessary relays are required if using standard harness (like the dual relay passenger side engine bay and the ignition module under dash (above the fuse box)
Original (dealer) tropic air has a few extra relays (2-3) mounted up front near coil.
I think tropic air was wired into the fan speed (HI) position as well as the fan speed resistor in engine bay.
When the fan was turned to HI speed, it activated the tropic-air system.
I have all the tropic air parts in a box(except few cut hoses to dash). If you are in USA, I could send out some parts if needed.
the older gtv6 owner manuals have decent fold out wiring diagrams....
of course, all the necessary relays are required if using standard harness (like the dual relay passenger side engine bay and the ignition module under dash (above the fuse box)
Original (dealer) tropic air has a few extra relays (2-3) mounted up front near coil.
I think tropic air was wired into the fan speed (HI) position as well as the fan speed resistor in engine bay.
When the fan was turned to HI speed, it activated the tropic-air system.
I have all the tropic air parts in a box(except few cut hoses to dash). If you are in USA, I could send out some parts if needed.
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
Just saw you are in PA...not far..
-
crusaderchuck
- Silver
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:58 am
- Location: Orwigsburg, PA
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
Sent you a PM.
For other folks out there, I'm trying not to burden this Forum with my Italian electrical gremlin problems, but I really need some help with this....so any further help would be super appreciated!
I'll get there...but I'll just have less hair in the end!
For other folks out there, I'm trying not to burden this Forum with my Italian electrical gremlin problems, but I really need some help with this....so any further help would be super appreciated!
I'll get there...but I'll just have less hair in the end!
Charles F. Christ Sr.
"Chuck"
"Chuck"
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
Chuck,
You mentioned a green wire from the ignition switch. That should go to the spark coil resistor & the car won't run without it. If your car is the same as my 1983 (Australian delivered) there are four wires coming out of the ignition switch - three (including the green) go through a 3-way connector and the 4th (black) is on a single plastic connector of it's own (lord knows why).
Fuel pump on the 1983 is pink with a white stripe, passes through the inertia switch (check the reset button) to terminal 88d of the combo relay. The combo relay is sometimes a culprit in these situations. Also have a close look at the “white” wire I’ve got wiring in the engine bay (to the lights) that fades and looks white. A real mongrel tracing that as it changes colour moving through the harness.
I have scanned copies of the wiring from my owners manual (Australian, NOT Tropic-air). I could e-mail if you like. I print them out on A3 paper (16" x 12") which works for my old eyes. - Or it’s probably better if you try the ALFA BB http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/
there's a page there on 116s & another on electrical, you should be able to get diagrams specifically for your car there. There’s a bloke on that site who collects, redrafts and colour codes diagrams for ALFAs.
And you aren’t burdening anyone with your posts. If it’s any consolation I was out in the car last night working on my car’s electricals using a headlamp in the dark it was 0 C (32 F).
Good Luck
AL.
You mentioned a green wire from the ignition switch. That should go to the spark coil resistor & the car won't run without it. If your car is the same as my 1983 (Australian delivered) there are four wires coming out of the ignition switch - three (including the green) go through a 3-way connector and the 4th (black) is on a single plastic connector of it's own (lord knows why).
Fuel pump on the 1983 is pink with a white stripe, passes through the inertia switch (check the reset button) to terminal 88d of the combo relay. The combo relay is sometimes a culprit in these situations. Also have a close look at the “white” wire I’ve got wiring in the engine bay (to the lights) that fades and looks white. A real mongrel tracing that as it changes colour moving through the harness.
I have scanned copies of the wiring from my owners manual (Australian, NOT Tropic-air). I could e-mail if you like. I print them out on A3 paper (16" x 12") which works for my old eyes. - Or it’s probably better if you try the ALFA BB http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/
there's a page there on 116s & another on electrical, you should be able to get diagrams specifically for your car there. There’s a bloke on that site who collects, redrafts and colour codes diagrams for ALFAs.
And you aren’t burdening anyone with your posts. If it’s any consolation I was out in the car last night working on my car’s electricals using a headlamp in the dark it was 0 C (32 F).
Good Luck
AL.
-
crusaderchuck
- Silver
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:58 am
- Location: Orwigsburg, PA
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
ok here is where i'm at as of yesterday's adventure in the car:
the connector on the firewall that the starter solenoid attaches is doing odd things at odd times. i used a continuity test light with wire to starter disconected. sitting in the car actuating the key / ignition swith , this is what i saw!
intermittant times of power at all times and evry so often the connector would actually only be "live" in the start position (like it is supposed to work?). most of the time it was "live" even with the key out of the column! now , more "stuff" was happening that never worked before in the car.
on the side of the ignition swith are two male spade connectors that, 1 gray with black tracer and 1 red with black tracer wires attach. when i would wiggle or disconect and reconect that effected the status of the firewall connector for the starter. but! also the lgnition warning buzzer would work evry so often along with a clicking relay somewhere behind the heater controll panel in center dash.
i'm highly suspicious that the beginning of this car's problems is a faulty ignition switch.
as mentioned yes the ignition switch does have a green wire coming from it but no corresponding green wire in the harness nor is there any evidence of any wire having been stuck into the harness's conector.
side note i was just told yesterday! the car started and would run 17 years ago but the key would not turn off the car! the coil had to be disconnected to stop it form running .
the connector on the firewall that the starter solenoid attaches is doing odd things at odd times. i used a continuity test light with wire to starter disconected. sitting in the car actuating the key / ignition swith , this is what i saw!
intermittant times of power at all times and evry so often the connector would actually only be "live" in the start position (like it is supposed to work?). most of the time it was "live" even with the key out of the column! now , more "stuff" was happening that never worked before in the car.
on the side of the ignition swith are two male spade connectors that, 1 gray with black tracer and 1 red with black tracer wires attach. when i would wiggle or disconect and reconect that effected the status of the firewall connector for the starter. but! also the lgnition warning buzzer would work evry so often along with a clicking relay somewhere behind the heater controll panel in center dash.
i'm highly suspicious that the beginning of this car's problems is a faulty ignition switch.
as mentioned yes the ignition switch does have a green wire coming from it but no corresponding green wire in the harness nor is there any evidence of any wire having been stuck into the harness's conector.
side note i was just told yesterday! the car started and would run 17 years ago but the key would not turn off the car! the coil had to be disconnected to stop it form running .
Charles F. Christ Sr.
"Chuck"
"Chuck"
-
crusaderchuck
- Silver
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:58 am
- Location: Orwigsburg, PA
Re: 1984 electrical gremlins
Al,
Forgot to say thank you for your information! I'm processing all of this, hoping to eventually hear the glorious sound of a motor starting.
Also, put another shrimp on the BBQ for me! Although you are having winter, and it is definitely being summer up here in PA, USA. Here they say it's not the heat, it's the humidity, and they are right! Although we BBQ all year up here, yes, even when it snows!
BTW... I've seen Melbourne on TV on the travel and food shows. It looks like a great city with awesome cuisine!
Anyway, back to cars. I had to stop the Alfa work. The tree farm next door has a box type truck that needed work ASAP. Seems their real mechanic shop did some things that seem questionable to me. Another something else to help out a friend during their season.
I'll be back with more Alfa stuff as soon as this silver truck goes home.
thanks again!
Chuck
Forgot to say thank you for your information! I'm processing all of this, hoping to eventually hear the glorious sound of a motor starting.
Also, put another shrimp on the BBQ for me! Although you are having winter, and it is definitely being summer up here in PA, USA. Here they say it's not the heat, it's the humidity, and they are right! Although we BBQ all year up here, yes, even when it snows!
BTW... I've seen Melbourne on TV on the travel and food shows. It looks like a great city with awesome cuisine!
Anyway, back to cars. I had to stop the Alfa work. The tree farm next door has a box type truck that needed work ASAP. Seems their real mechanic shop did some things that seem questionable to me. Another something else to help out a friend during their season.
I'll be back with more Alfa stuff as soon as this silver truck goes home.
thanks again!
Chuck
Charles F. Christ Sr.
"Chuck"
"Chuck"