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A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by PietereQ »

I've read all topics concerning this but didnt find all the answers. First off I know as much about A/C in gtv6 as Bush does about Mongolian funereal anthems. This summers' perudent heat wave of 38 C made me think seroiusly about installing A/C in my gtv6, so could you help me with listing the necessary items I need to purchase, to make my driving a pleasure in these hot days. Of course I'm thinking of installing original gtv6 parts into mine car. Anyone had done similar projects like this? Any feedback is very welcome.
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Post by sh0rtlife »

brakets, a pump(id find something more efficiant) vapor seperator, condensor , ac controls,hoses, freon, wireing ...........idealy your best off finding an alfa AC/heater box to start with and work backwards...since its the only real unique piece...anything else can pretty much be taken from other cars
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by Melvivio »

As I promised to post more here, I searched for a place to post, as it is always better to post in a existing thread then to create a new one :roll:

Next I'll update my introduction post as well, but this is a project which should be placed here.

Kevin gave me some advice few months ago, about the placement of the AC compressor. The plan has slightly changed, and is currently as following :
Image
Image

Yellow block is the AC pump. It can be a maximum of 125mm in Diameter
Yellow is low pressure side. Small yellow block is gas pressure regulator.
Red/orange is high pressure side. Orange in the front is the original Condenser
Blue is a gas dryer

My preference is leading the 2 pipes to the original entrance point into the cabin, and not via the pedal box.

Purple is current place of the high voltage ballasts
Brown is an adapter plate oil cooler
Green is an extra +cable from the alternator (has been boosted, and tested up to 125Amps)

I'm currently in the stage of checking the electrical system, and opening up the heater box. The car had original AC, so the evaporate is still there! I'm opening it up to see what mods I can do to it, and if it needs replacement to work on 134a

Any suggestions are of course welcome, When it's dry, the car will go to the specialists, and I will hear if they like my ideas. More later!
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by MD »

The air flow and fan position of the GTV6 "heater box" is next to useless and noisey. For European conditions, yes it makes planty of heat if correctly working but it will never make good air conditioning by tropical standards, doesn't matter what you do to it.

A much better design for the "heater box" is the 75 unit. It has the fans in a push mode and at the rear so it is more efficient and quieter. I have never tried to install this in a GTV but if you are customising a lot of things, it would be the ONLY improvement you will make.
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by Melvivio »

Okey! thanks for the tip! The highest temperature in Holland I've ever seen on my modern car is 40degrees Celsius.. (last year) And the car is black, so the AC needs to be good! I'm not going to freeze myself, but I need to be chilled :roll:

Even with a bearing&electric motor upgrade and cleaning of the fan it won't be enough you reckon?

If this is the case I'll try to find out if the 75 box is plug and play, and suggest this idea on other fora.

I've read the the instructions here on this site on the removal of the top piece of the AC. However, I can't manage it. Where the **** on the unit are the last clips? On the back? I can't get my eye on them... so It's trail and error I guess?
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by MD »

Assume that I live in the sub tropics (which I do)where we rely on airconditioning almost all year round. Also assume that I know how a good air conditioner should work. So when I make suggestions to you also assume I know what I am talking about having done this exercise completely from start to finish after a total strip down to bare metal rebuild of my car.

Over time, Dutch guys have been exceptionally helpful to me and I would like to return the favour.

The very first thing I need you to understand is that air conditioning does not put cold into your cabin. It takes heat out.The cabin becomes cooler as a consequence. Total cabin heat including body heat is called the heat load.

Here are some of the specific problems with the GTV6 in terms of getting good air conditioning :-

1The heat load in the car is larger than cars generally because of the large glass area it has.
2 More heat load from the engine through the firewall as there is no insulation to speak of on it.
3 Additional heat load through the floor because the exhaust system is not lagged.
4 The heater valve usually has a minor leak and provides more heat into the cabin.
5 The engine bay cross members are hollow and have drain holes in them. Unfortunately, due to a factory design fault, these hollow sections are channelling engine bay heat into the external cold air ducting and providing additional heat load into the cabin all the time.

All this heat load would be a challenge for any well designed system but the Alfa system is not even well designed because:

1 The evaporator unit is too small and wrongly configured.
2 The condeser size is too small and inefficient due to an out dated design.
3 The air circulation around the evaporator unit is so bad that it causes 50% of it to be by-passed and the rest is partially iced up so it gets blocked. Once blocked, no air can circulate through it and no heat scrubbing can take place.
4 The air speed and VOLUME from the fans is too small.
5 The air distribution is hopelessly inadequate becasue there is no distribution only one outlet for each front pasenger coming from a single point source.The side vents are for fresh air only.
6 The fan noise is excessive.
7 The thermostat tolerance is too wide and causes too much heat build up before it engages the compressor again.
8 The system cannot cool down a hot car.

Now for the worst part.

To get access to all this and fix it like it needs to be done this is what you need to do :-

1 Remove dashboard compeltely
2 Remove all existing GTV6 air conditioning components and place them in the waste bin
3 Install new condenser,new drier, new compressor, new gas lines, new evaporator/heater module, bigger fans, air filter,new custom ducting behind dashboard and face level outlets. The majority of all this reinstall will need to be customised.
4 Modify console to adjust for new set up as required.
5 Plug off engine bay hot air going into inside guard channels.Use expansion foam to do this .
6 Fix insulation on the engine side of the firewall
7 Install a ball valve to the heater supply line so you can manually turn if off during the summer
8 Insulate the exhaust under the floor or the floor from the exhaust
9 If you still cannot get enough chill in the cabin, install a transparent plastic divider betwen the front passenger section and the rear compartment to reduce the heat load volume. This means no air conditioning will be available to rear passengers at all.

So, are you ready for an air conditioning project or what?

In summary what you are doing is retrofitting a contemporary air conditioning SYSTEM that is DESIGNED for the heat loads in this car.

Doing anything less is a bit like fitting a new fan belt and hoping it will fix your electrical problems because the alternator now has a more reliable drive...

You can always just open the window.. :D
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by Melvivio »

Hey MD! Excuse me if I offended you! It was never my intention to question your knowledge or experience about this matter. So if I have, I'm terribly sorry. English is my second language, but I'm still no pro unfortunately.

Thanks for the tips so far, and YES I'm willing to go the extra mile on this one. In my opinion aircon is one of the best things to have in a car. As I'm still a student, I'll try to save some cash if I can, and try to do as much as I can myself :)

Thanks for the explanation about the working principle. I understand your criticism at the old system better now.

I've tackled some problems:
- The exhaust manifold is already wrapped, and the complete exhaust will be heat-tape.
- The firewall and floor are laminated with dynamat, and I can already tell it helped. So are the doors, and if I can remove the head liner safely that will be too.

*All the AC components will be new!

*I'll ask the specialist what is possible within the original heater box. If it's not adequate I'll scrap it, and figure out something else. I should visit them by the end of this week, so I'll keep you posted.

*I'll look into 5 and plug off the guard channels.

Ones again, thank you, your help is really appreciated!
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by MD »

No apology necessary. It must be in the language interpretation of how I have said things. No, no problems whatsoever from me. I am just trying to help you, that's all.
For sure get some advice from air conditioning specialists. Everything helps.

Best of luck with your program.
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by Melvivio »

Hello MD!

Ones again thank you for pointing out the faults in the system. Quick update;
I've visited the AC builders, and weren't to happy with the idea I've thought out. They would try to make A system, but in essence they said, Back to the drawing board!

Here is their list of problems with the car/engine bay/ fitting AC to it.

- The fitting of a 5-6hp compressor (adequate for the car) to the cylinder head using the 164 dynamo bracket was NOT ideal. They were worried the head could rupture under the stress of the compressor. The exhaust heat would be devastating to the comp. and it's performance (the manifold IS wrapped in tape).

Upfront, on the right side of the engine bay, down at the 2.5 carter, there was no room due to the oil filter, and no mounting points for a custom AC bracket.
*Solution, Re-weld or strengthen the 164 bracket, or make a custom bracket (the original 3bolt design was not adequate.. :? ), and fit it to the head after all :? . The compressor will be a smaller 3-4hp unit. The exhaust manifold will be covered with a aluminium heat shield.

- As stated by you and them the condenser is to small, out of date.
* A custom unit will be build, with it's own fan. The stock radiator fans will be replaced by better ones.

- The routing of the gas lines wasn't optimal. Behind the engine there was to little room, and they would heat up to much to be efficient.
*Reroute! The place of the receiver dryer and pressure regulator can be moved up.
Image

- The NEW AC system would use the old evaporator, as it would be better....... :?:

So there is still hope in my mind. What do you think about his comments? Is he exaggerating about the temperatures under the bonnet? And could the bracket really fracture the head?

ANYWAY interior.

Your right, removing the heater box is even more sh*t that removing the dash itself. But I managed, and here are my pics and questions.

Image
Would you recommend making a box which could house a particle filter?

Image
Purring the duct fully shut is a bit to harsh for me... I know you want to blow as much air as possible down the main shaft, but I would like to leave them open just a bit. I'll think of something.....

Image
Now I really understand the problem this box has. I found so much junk in there. It was awefull.

What heaterbox did you fit? I'm going to look at a 75unit, but I can't imagine I can make it fit.

The old setup doesn't leave much room for improvement.
I guess you could wrap everything in so the air would be forced through the heater and such.
Image
And replace the entire electric motor. Install bigger fans??
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by MD »

All your front end work will all be for nothing if you reuse the original evaporator/fan assembly. I said from the outset that if you want good air conditioning, you really have to redesign it from start to finish and literally make a new one.

Here are a couple of evaporator units that are of sufficient capacity to do the job. I have used the conceiled type before on an Alfetta. You have to make all your own ducting behind the dashboard and insulate it too. The model EV2208 is available with a heater as well.

If you place it in the middle, you will need to remake the centre console too to shape it so as to make it a neat job. If you get rid of the parcel shelf, that's another possibility.

You can look up the specs. here :

http://www.jayair.com.au/Default.aspx
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Evap unit 18,000  BTU Model EV2206.jpg
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by Melvivio »

Hello MD, thanks for the advice. I took it with me to the shop, showed them, but the man on the job convinced me it would just not be necessary. So I got a weird deal... If it would be up to the task of cooling me down in the summer in Italy on summer holiday, they would rebuild it for free...

So as you probably wonder now, is it finished then? YEP! And this is what it took to realise AC on a 24v car. I'll name in short what they did, and which components they used.

To make it work, there was much more think work involved in the building, then I could have ever made a plan for.
Sanden SP-10 pv8 12v compressor
Image
The Alternator bracket of the 164 is used as a base
The belt needed to be realigned with the rest of the items.
It's fixed with special fixing bolts

The track of the belt has improved and won't be at the correct tension with the help of the alternator any more. It now makes use of an exentric tensioner VKM 33013
The belt is a 8groove 6PK1615.
Image
Behind the headlight unit the they fixed the dryer and pressure sensor
Image
Out of sight and not easily to put on photo is a new Condenser Harrison High Performance uv5009 The system has its own Spal Condenserfan.

The electrics are new, but use the old gtv's plan's to operate. The relais have been placed in the engine bay.
Image

The heater box HAS been modified. There are new gaskets, rubbers, and its a tight seal so the air must travel trough the evaporator.
The electric motor has been rewired, with new bushings, and a new resistor and better power feeds.
There is also a new more accurate thermostat and it has a different place in the evaporator then previously;
Image
The system is filled with 650gr 134a @12Bar.
High pressure side has 13Bar, low 1,7Bar. The pressostaat is at 28Bar.

Also there has been placed a new heatervalve;
Image
The only modification made is to the heaterunit itself. They cut away the connecting bit so it would all fit.

Only thing left for me to do is enjoy, and find a new sticker:Image

And make some heat protection plates. The hard part is over anyway :)
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by Melvivio »

So an update. I ran halfway during this summer into some trouble. One of my radiator fans died.

So I bought a second hand 156/166 jtd unit, welded some mounting points to it.
Image
The result is a much more stable water temperature and the ability to cool down the engine faster.

When I brought the car it didn't have its glove compartment shelf installed (broken) Now I got a new one, but noticed I couldn't install it due to the way the heater crane is installed. Something that has to be redone.

Third problem was that a couple of weeks ago the AC system started leaking so halfway it just wouldn't get cold in the car any-more.

Car is at the shops to fix the problems. This should be warranty, so lets see what they come up with. :)
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by krash2 »

Hi, Pete,

Saw your post on GTV-6 AC and felt compelled to chime in since I've gone through a version of that process recently. I haven't read the entire history of this thread, so perhaps my story isn't exactly on point, but I'll tell it anyway.

My car originally had the TropicAir option with the second evaporator in the passenger footwell. Since it had been on its way to becoming a racecar before I bought it, all the ACparts except for the heater box had been removed, and I had to replace some of them in order to have any sort of AC at all.

I think the person who suggested starting with the heater box was on right. There is a long copper thermostat probe attached to the back of the blue AC control on the heater box which is often missing (mine had been simply cut off). That bit is hard to find -- the solution in my case was to wire the compressor directly to the blue AC control knob on the heater box so that the compressor is either on or off (independent of the fan/blower).

For the heater valve, my mechanic fabricated a mounting bracket to enable the use of a Spider valve instead. (I tried several replacements, including one from an ancient Datsun 2000, to no avail.)

I bought a new condenser from this place:

Arizona Mobile Air Inc.
3601 W. Clarendon
Phoenix, Arizona 85019
(800) 648-4476 ph
(602) 233-0389 fax
http://www.ackits.com/

I bought a 1-12-0544C ($115.00), which measures 14 x 20.5 inches. Also bought a right-angle adaptor (35-B1322) because the inflow (or outflow, I don't remember) has to point downwards. This was the third condenser I'd ordered (the first two were too big), but before I received this third one, the original condenser had already been reinstalled, so the new one has been never installed in the car.

I also bought a mounting bracket for the compressor. As you may know, the original GTV-6 compressor was a York piston type. In order to fit a (relatively) modern Sanden compressor, you need an AC compressor mounting bracket from a 75 (Milano). I have an extra one if you need that.

And, not to open an old vein about replacement refrigerants, but I bought ES-12a from this place (although not EPA-certified as a replacement for freon, it IS an EPA-certified replacement for R-134): http://www.autorefrigerants.com/

In the TropicAir cars, the fresh air vents at the ends of the dash are connected directly to the second AC condenser (the fresh air connections to those two vents are blocked off). Whatever you do, keep those vents for the fresh air, not the AC.

So now I have a rudimentary AC system again, and it does blow some cold air into the passenger compartment. Even in optimal condition, though, it doesn't work as well as the AC system in, say, a 1979 Toyota Corolla, but it is definitely an improvement over nothing at all. The best GTV-6 AC system is still, whenever possible, open all the windows and the sunroof and drive really fast.

I know your car is a long way from "stock," but I hope some of this info is useful.

I have some AC parts for sale if you're interested, although I was hoping to sell them all together:

75 (Milano) compressor mounting bracket
condenser and adaptor
TropicAir second evaporator that hangs from the glovebox in the passenger footwell
Other miscellaneous TropicAir bits

I have a question that you might be able to answer while in your AC rebuild process. On the heater box there is a slider lever labeled "INT" at the left and "EXT" at the right, which is supposed to open or close an exterior fresh air vent for the two large round vents on the front of the heater box. On my car that lever doesn't work -- INT or EXT, I get hot air either way. The vent to the outside is either disconnected from the lever cable, or blocked off. Where is that vent (through the firewall, I presume) and can I access it without removing the dash or the heater box?

On another subject, your Rial 7x15 wheels still look fabulous on my car.

Regards,

Charlie Koster
San Gabriel, CA
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by kevin »

Hi Charlie , you by chance have pics with all your mods , especially on heater valve .
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Kevin
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Re: A/C installation in a non A/C spec GTV6

Post by MD »

Kevin,

By far the best solution for the heater valve control is to do away with it altogether. Just remove it and fabricate a hose connection to it.

Relocate your new control valve under the hood like all the Jap cars. In fact use a Jap controller and simply extend the control cable (and hoses)to it.

That way it's a cake walk to service/replace if and when needed.
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