ALFAGTV6.COM

[Lancianut69]

Hi Guys,

I was given a link o your site by one of the guys on the Alfa Owners site. I have a Lancia Montecarlo, which I spent a long time restoring. It has the standard Lampredi twin cam unit in it for now, but I want to fit a 3 Litre V6, like it was designed to have.

I have a friend who has already put a 12 valve in and added an Aston Martin supercharger. I don't particularly want to copy him, and his install was done about 10 years ago. I was considering the 24 valve unit, possibly using the 166 six speed box with a Q2.

That's about as far as I got. I'm not looking for massive power - low down torque is more important. I haven't written off the 12 valve idea and I'm looking for info and experiences of both types, normal aspirated and supercharged.

Couple of shots of my car at the NEC last year.

Cheers

Darren

[Greg Gordon]

Hi Darren,

That's a really nice Montecarlo. I have quite a bit of experience supercharging the 12 valve Alfa V6 and some experience supercharging the Alfa 4cylinder. You may want to check out my site.

Greg Gordon,
www.hiperformancestore.com

[GarthW]

Yes i must say, very nice Lancia! Damn V6 in that would fly!!

[MR2 Zig]

NICE!!!!!!

How about turbo/super charging the four that's in it? Not different enough?

zig

[Lancianut69]

Hi Darren,

That's a really nice Montecarlo. I have quite a bit of experience supercharging the 12 valve Alfa V6 and some experience supercharging the Alfa 4cylinder. You may want to check out my site.

Greg Gordon,
http://www.hiperformancestore.com

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the compliment and the link - I'll have a good read of your site. So, do you recommend the 12 valve over the 24?

[Lancianut69]

Yes i must say, very nice Lancia! Damn V6 in that would fly!!

Hi Garth,

Thanks for that! I know for a fact they really do fly with Alfa V6 power. Looking forwardto getting stuck into this project!

Cheers

Darren

[Lancianut69]

NICE!!!!!!

How about turbo/super charging the four that's in it? Not different enough?

zig

Hi Zig,

Thanks! ;o)

Turbocharging the engine I have would require a complete rebuild and a lot of fabrication work. Ditto with supercharging. Although, it is possible to use the Volumex unit, but it needs either alteratino to the firewall to fit, or fabrication of a new inlet manifold. And at the end of all that, the power output would still be a lot less than 200 bhp. A 12 valve will go in without any modification at all. I'm pretty sure a 24 valve would too.

Bigger displacement, that great 'V' sound and the whine of a blower?? It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned!! But, I do need help and advice as to which way to go with both engine (12 or 24) and gearbox (5 or 6 speed manual).

Cheers

Darren

[Mats]

NICE!!!!!!

How about turbo/super charging the four that's in it? Not different enough?

zig

I second this, go the Lancia 037 route. It's the natural progression!
A Fiat Coupé 16v unit would do it!

Or maybe the Montecarlo Group5, what did those have?

Love the car, looks like you put a lot of work into it!

[Lancianut69]

I second this, go the Lancia 037 route. It's the natural progression!
A Fiat Coupé 16v unit would do it!

Or maybe the Montecarlo Group5, what did those have?

Love the car, looks like you put a lot of work into it!

Hi Mats,

It is an idea, but it is a helluva lot of work, plus the engine is the wrong way round. I also think the Coupe engine is a bit too long to fit in there with the transaxle. The 037 was a 16v supercharged unit. The S4 was supercharged and turbo'd - a bit out of my price range and skill set! Space is a bit limiting too!!

The 037 used a transaxle inline, which is possible to do but you have to cut the back off and start again with a spaceframe. Doing that also means an SVA test here in the uk due to chassis modification.

The original Fiat concept (the 030) was to have a 3 litre V6, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm just putting it back to how it should be! ;o))

The Montecarlo Grp 5 Turbo was a 1.4 turbo charged 16v unit (I think). As I said up top, I'm a fan of the blower rather than turbos.

Thema installations (16v turbo) and 8.32 installations (V8) have been done, but both are pretty rare engines to get hold of. Couple that with a love of the V configuration and sound lead me to the Alfa engine.

Thanks for the compliment on the car - it did take a while and it was a lot of work, but it was worth it! You can see more pictures of it and other stuff in my Lancisti folder. www.lancisti.net - look left for the old photo gallery and look for Darren under members galleries.

Now, suggestions or pros & cons for 12 valve vs 24 valve?

[Mats]

My idea was to drop in the complete drivetrain fron the coupé, engine+ transmission. Should fit fine? It fits in between the wheels at the front and they swivel quite a lot you know. But maybe the Montecarlo is just too narrow?
To make a proper "replica" install would be silly in respect to work as you pointed out.

12v
Pros: they are plenty and cheap
cons: single cam, not too rev happy due to exhaust rocker design.

24v
Pros: twin cam with cams directly on top of the followers, more power
cons: heavier, more expensive.

[Lancianut69]

My idea was to drop in the complete drivetrain fron the coupé, engine+ transmission. Should fit fine? It fits in between the wheels at the front and they swivel quite a lot you know. But maybe the Montecarlo is just too narrow?
To make a proper "replica" install would be silly in respect to work as you pointed out.

12v
Pros: they are plenty and cheap
cons: single cam, not too rev happy due to exhaust rocker design.

24v
Pros: twin cam with cams directly on top of the followers, more power
cons: heavier, more expensive.

;o) Yeah, I think the monte is too narrow to fit the Fiat unit, or so I have been told.

12v - not looking for max revs, more torque

24v - is there a lot of difference in weight?

Looking at some of the pics of the engines, the sump is pretty deep. Is there scope to fabricate a new shallower sump without the scallop for the cross member?

Basic basics question here - what cars have the 12v and what have the 24v?

Thanks for the help!

Cheers

Darren

[Greg Gordon]

I would go with the 12 valver over the 24 valver. It's a lot less money and that cash can be better spent in other areas, like the blower, intercooler, etc. A supercharged 12 valver can easily make enough power to blow up most transaxles that could realistically fit, so I don't see any need for the extra expense and complexity of the 24 valver.

Lets look at the fabrication issue for a moment. I think there would be far less fabrication involved in supercharging the existing engine than in adapting a V6. Overhauling the stock engine for supercharging is almost trivial (considering the size of the overall project), just a standard rebuild plus forged pistons and perhaps rods and O-ringing depending on goals. You do not need to make a new intake manifold. Fiat's standard manifold for a 2bbl Weber will work very well here.

If it were my car I would probably go the 037 route as Mats mentioned. I would NOT use the Volumex unit, that's an ancient twin straight lobe design literally dating back to the 1860's (yes, that's an 18 not a 19). It's not that it's a bad blower, but the newer 4th/5th gen Eaton/Magnusons are so much better.

Before going into the complexity and work of fitting in another engine, look carefully at what you can do with the current engine. With an MP62 supercharger water injection (used on certain versions of the 037!) an intercooler and minor internal mods like forged pistons you should be able to get up around 275hp. With a bigger blower and more mods, even more, right up to the point where things break.

I am speaking from experience here. I have done engine swaps and they never go as planned, supercharging is easier and much more effective.

Greg Gordon,
http://www.hiperformancestore.com

[Lancianut69]

I would go with the 12 valver over the 24 valver. It's a lot less money and that cash can be better spent in other areas, like the blower, intercooler, etc. A supercharged 12 valver can easily make enough power to blow up most transaxles that could realistically fit, so I don't see any need for the extra expense and complexity of the 24 valver.

Lets look at the fabrication issue for a moment. I think there would be far less fabrication involved in supercharging the existing engine than in adapting a V6. Overhauling the stock engine for supercharging is almost trivial (considering the size of the overall project), just a standard rebuild plus forged pistons and perhaps rods and O-ringing depending on goals. You do not need to make a new intake manifold. Fiat's standard manifold for a 2bbl Weber will work very well here.

If it were my car I would probably go the 037 route as Mats mentioned. I would NOT use the Volumex unit, that's an ancient twin straight lobe design literally dating back to the 1860's (yes, that's an 18 not a 19). It's not that it's a bad blower, but the newer 4th/5th gen Eaton/Magnusons are so much better.

Before going into the complexity and work of fitting in another engine, look carefully at what you can do with the current engine. With an MP62 supercharger water injection (used on certain versions of the 037!) an intercooler and minor internal mods like forged pistons you should be able to get up around 275hp. With a bigger blower and more mods, even more, right up to the point where things break.

I am speaking from experience here. I have done engine swaps and they never go as planned, supercharging is easier and much more effective.

Greg Gordon,
http://www.hiperformancestore.com

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the input. The only thing at the moment is that there seem to be plenty of 24V engines around in the UK, but precious few 12v. I will keep looking and see what happens.

I don't understand how (apart from rebuilding the internals of my engine) that all I would need is a sidedraft manifold? Getting 200+ reliable power out of a 4 pot is an expensive process. The price of forged rods and pistons on their own is not far short of 2k, without considering head work, new valves, cams etc. There's no substitute for cc's someone once said. Why not start with an engine that's putting out 200 plus bhp in virtually standard format.

As I mentioned previously, the fabrication to get a 12 valve in is minimal. In fact, the biggest job will probably be having a shaped fuel tank for the front. I would prefer not to do the same that my friend did with his monte, but not if it's going to cost a lot more money for a heavier, less reliable engine.

Copuple of pics of my friend's set up

Cheers

[Greg Gordon]

Hi Darren:

The massive cost of the 24 valver is not in the acquisition, it's in the overhaul expense. Valve guides for a 24v Alfa engine are $45 each, and there are 24 of them. For the 12 valver they are $8 each and there are only 12 of them. That difference alone is almost enough to buy a supercharger. Factor in the cost of the extra valves and machining associated with a valve job and it adds up really fast. The entire engine is that way, the parts for the 24 valver are a lot more and there are a lot more of them to replace/remachine. I figure, best case, with the tendency of these engines to bend valves you will be dealing with this eventually.

Now I understand you may be able to find a good used 24valve engine that doesn't need to be opened up, but if it were my project I would want to start with a fresh engine.

What I said about manifolding seemed to be a little misunderstood. I didn't say anything about a side draft manifold. I was referring to the normal Fiat 2000cc intake manifold that has a single two barrel downdraft carb. They built a million of them that way, it's a common manifold. I also didn't say that was all you need. I did say you don't need to cast a manifold, I never do.

Your friends car is awesome. I love it. My point is that your car with a Fiat 2.0 and 10psi of boost will probably run away from it. A normal overhaul of a Fiat 2.0 doesn't cost too much. You won't need cams or headwork, just good pistons (the rods I am not sure about, the stock ones might be fine).

Don't forget the overall weight of the supercharged 4cyl will be a lot lower than that of the V6. This makes a difference.

I hate to keep throwing these drag race videos around, but they do demonstrate my point. A mildly souped up Alfa 3.0 is NO match for an Alfa 2.0 4cyl with 10 pounds of supercharger boost. The Fiat 2.0 has every bit as much potential. The supercharged Alfa 4cyl in this video is not only stock except for forged 8.5:1 pistons, it's camshaft overlap is set for max fuel economy not power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NoqOup ... annel_page

Greg

[Lancianut69]

Hi Darren:

The massive cost of the 24 valver is not in the acquisition, it's in the overhaul expense. Valve guides for a 24v Alfa engine are $45 each, and there are 24 of them. For the 12 valver they are $8 each and there are only 12 of them. That difference alone is almost enough to buy a supercharger. Factor in the cost of the extra valves and machining associated with a valve job and it adds up really fast. The entire engine is that way, the parts for the 24 valver are a lot more and there are a lot more of them to replace/remachine. I figure, best case, with the tendency of these engines to bend valves you will be dealing with this eventually.

Now I understand you may be able to find a good used 24valve engine that doesn't need to be opened up, but if it were my project I would want to start with a fresh engine.

What I said about manifolding seemed to be a little misunderstood. I didn't say anything about a side draft manifold. I was referring to the normal Fiat 2000cc intake manifold that has a single two barrel downdraft carb. They built a million of them that way, it's a common manifold. I also didn't say that was all you need. I did say you don't need to cast a manifold, I never do.

Your friends car is awesome. I love it. My point is that your car with a Fiat 2.0 and 10psi of boost will probably run away from it. A normal overhaul of a Fiat 2.0 doesn't cost too much. You won't need cams or headwork, just good pistons (the rods I am not sure about, the stock ones might be fine).

Don't forget the overall weight of the supercharged 4cyl will be a lot lower than that of the V6. This makes a difference.

I hate to keep throwing these drag race videos around, but they do demonstrate my point. A mildly souped up Alfa 3.0 is NO match for an Alfa 2.0 4cyl with 10 pounds of supercharger boost. The Fiat 2.0 has every bit as much potential. The supercharged Alfa 4cyl in this video is not only stock except for forged 8.5:1 pistons, it's camshaft overlap is set for max fuel economy not power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NoqOup ... annel_page

Greg

Hi Greg,

Apologies for the delay in replying! ;o) I hear what you're saying about the 24 valve unit and I think you're right. I also heard that the 12 valve develops its max torque at lower revs, which is a plus. I can get a recon 24 valve unit for about 1500.00 GBP, but it doesn't include new valve stem seals and as you say, at some point they and probably a whole lot more are going to need replacing.

I'm sorry - must be really dense - but I still don't get what you mean with the manifold on my existing engine. I have several of the standard inlet manifolds which are at the correct angle for the car, and for the standard single twin choke but I still don't get what you mean. How would this be used to add a supercharger?

Building a new engine ready to accept a supercharger would not be cheap. Forged pistons, rods and rings are going to cost around 2,000 GBP - on top of finding a donor engine. My current engine would still need the same spent on it as it has high compression pistons on standard rods. If I was going to be running that much boost then I wouldn't be happy with the original rods.

I'm not sure there's actually that much difference in weight between the 2 powertrains. The original engive is a cast lump, whereas the alfa unit is ally isn't it? Surely to start with, it would be better to have an engine that is putting out 200+ bhp in virtually standard trim, normally aspirated to start with than get the same output from a stressed and blown 4 pot?

Like the vid - but what would the result be if the V6 had a similar supercharger setup?

Thanks again for all the advice mate

Darren